Vatican Speaks on Pro-Choice Catholic Politicians

[elysian]

VATICAN CITY (AP) - A top Vatican cardinal said Friday that priests must deny communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights, but stopped short of saying whether it was right for John Kerry to receive communion.

Cardinal Francis Arinze spoke at a news conference to launch a new Vatican directive clamping down on liturgical abuses in Mass which bars lay people from giving sermons, non-Catholics from taking communion and rites of other religions from being introduced in the service.

© source where applicable

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/new...24lsco0&src=ap

I am not Catholic, however, this looks like a challenge for those who claim to be Catholic to walk the walk or accept the consequences. You can't claim to be in the RCC if you don't adhere to their teachings. Looks like truth in advertising to me.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Historically, there had been a lot more independence of the AmChurch from Rome.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the reason why the faith stayed more strong among Catholics in the US than in Italy.

dlw

[NSMinistries]

this could get interesting...

[Bob Jenkins]

I would image, if totally implemented, a great percentage of Catholics would be driven from the church. Maybe then there would be enough priests to go around.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I would image, if totally implemented, a great percentage of Catholics would be driven from the church. Maybe then there would be enough priests to go around.

That might prove a big boon for the Anglican Church.

dlw

[elysian]

I am decidedly pro-life and honestly wonder how one can claim to be Christian and pro-choice at the same time; however I did not come to the conclusion of when life begins and Who is the Author of life because the RCC told me so. I came to that conclusion by seeing what happens to women who are convinced either by boyfriends or "well-meaning" family to abort their babies. I came to that conclusion during a very long night after my best friend had been coerced by her boyfriend to abort her child. Nothing I could say or do was consolation for her, nothing could stop her tears, I had nothing to offer to take away the cold realization of what she had done. She was not the only one I knew who had been through this but her story was the one I saw close up. Another of my friends is still- 20 years later- dealing with the guilt and grief of abortion. The sad part is these young women seldom "choose" abortion of their own accord- there are boyfriends and parents in the background twisting the screws in many instances it is not her choice at all.

When I lost my first child to miscarriage I mourned the loss of a life- a child I would never see or hold. That was painful enough and I blamed myself even though it was likely nothing I did- I can't imagine the pain and guilt not only of the loss- but knowing you authorized it to happen and you are responsible- I know I would have a difficult time living with the guilt.

The RCC is finally saying "we are pro-life and we are serious about it." There is nothing wrong for demanding standards and guidelines of those who want to claim being a part of the RCC, in fact the RCC isn't terribly encouraging of independent thought on the part of its lay people. I can't claim to agree with everything the RCC teaches either (which is why I am not Catholic) but I don't pretend to be Catholic for political gain. The Vatican isn't letting politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths, which I agree with. If a pro-choice political position is incompatible with Catholicism (and I'm pretty sure, they set the record straight- it is) then you are either pro-choice or Catholic but not both.

I agree the RCC may lose membership, but it's not all about numbers. Every church has its "pew warmers"- and every church has those who take their faith seriously and try to adhere to the standards that their church upholds. It simply means what the RCC has taught all along: agree with us or you are not Catholic (or you are living in a state of mortal or unconfessed sin) so you may not commune in a Catholic church. This is not a new teaching, just reinforcing what the RCC has believed all along.

[romepunk]

Historically, there had been a lot more independence of the AmChurch from Rome.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the reason why the faith stayed more strong among Catholics in the US than in Italy.

Christinianity is dying in Europe in all its forms. It's hardly a Catholic phenomenon. Protestant communions are stronger in America as well. However, The Vatican itself is quite faithful, and very conservative. And AmChurch's independent streak only hurts us. Catechesis was horrible in through the 60's 70's, and 80's. It's just now improving. Rome is the only place that seemed to understand that Vatican II was not a modernist reformation.

The RCC is finally saying "we are pro-life and we are serious about it."

Of course, the Church has always said this. In fact, when RvW first legalized abortion, we were the only Church that said it. We had to go around convincing extremely conservative denominations like the Souther Baptist Convention that this was an issue. The Church is, however, getting more pro-active againt dissenting clerics and laymen, which is a great thing.

in fact the RCC isn't terribly encouraging of independent thought on the part of its lay people

Not true. It's very encouraging. Just because it teaches that certain truths are absolute doesn't mean that independent thought is discouraged. That's like saying the Bible discourages independent thought.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing a mass excommunication of guys like Kerry and Kennedy, unless they get their act together. It won't happen though. Pope John Paul II has a driving theme to his pontificate: Christian Unity. He has done so much to encourage ecumenical dialogue with our Orthodox and Protestant bretheren. This is what make dealing with this liberalizing trend in the Church in America and Western Europe so difficult.

We are at a stage in history not unlike that set for the Reformation. AmChurch's bishops wicked negligence clerical abuse for decades is shameful and scandalizing. Lay Catholics are not totally unjustified in seeing their bishops as corrupt. Couple with corruption with theological dissent and you have a dangerous situation. Liberal Catholic theologians, clerics and laymen would like to see a reversal of teachings on such things as abortion, birth control, homosexuality, women clergy and much else. The hierachy, by its own corruption, has lost the moral authority in the eyes of its flock to teach on these issues. Decisive condemnation, including threats of excommunication, will be seen as a heavyhanded powerplay by a monolithic, hypocritical, authoritarian instituion. It could lead to schism. And this is why the Church has been so slow and careful in dealing with these liberal trends. The misconduct of American bishops has put Rome in quite a quandry in dealing with AmChurch. They have to tread lightly, or risk another Reformation, and further fracturing of the Body of Christ.

[elysian]

Catechesis was horrible in through the 60's 70's, and 80's. It's just now improving. Rome is the only place that seemed to understand that Vatican II was not a modernist reformation..

Of course, the Church has always said this. In fact, when RvW first legalized abortion, we were the only Church that said it. We had to go around convincing extremely conservative denominations like the Southern Baptist Convention that this was an issue. The Church is, however, getting more pro-active againt dissenting clerics and laymen, which is a great thing..

Agreed. My own church (ELCA) needs to step up to the plate and condemn "abortion rights" as well as the Missouri Synod has done. Abortion is wrong. It is murder. Period. Our society should not condone it. Christians in general should not condone it.

Not true. It's very encouraging. Just because it teaches that certain truths are absolute doesn't mean that independent thought is discouraged. That's like saying the Bible discourages independent thought.

I left the RCC because I was taught if I didn't agree 100% with the Church's teachings, then I wasn't a Roman Catholic. But I didn't move too far away- after investigating several Protestant denominations I became Lutheran- and Confessional Lutherans are closer to Orthodox and RCC than other Protestants are. (Catholics agree with most of the Augsburg Confession, with the exception of marriage for clergy and views regarding Mary and veneration of the saints.) I will admit I got a far more extensive catechism becoming a Lutheran than I did from the RCC- and I got better and more scripturally sound answers to my questions than "the Church says this, so just believe it." It is very possible that poor/inadequate catechesis was a major part of my reason for leaving the RCC. (I became a Lutheran at age 20- in 1989.)

I for one wouldn't mind seeing a mass excommunication of guys like Kerry and Kennedy, unless they get their act together. It won't happen though. Pope John Paul II has a driving theme to his pontificate: Christian Unity. He has done so much to encourage ecumenical dialogue with our Orthodox and Protestant bretheren. This is what make dealing with this liberalizing trend in the Church in America and Western Europe so difficult..

Me too!
Here's where you can help make it happen. Even Protestants like me can sign the petition, amicus curiae or as a "friend of the court".

We are at a stage in history not unlike that set for the Reformation. ..

I agree- even within my own church there is dissent over issues such as homosexuality and abortion. Those of us like me who take the Confessional, Scriptural view cannot back down now. While we should not be cruel to homosexuals or women who have had abortions, we need to get the message out that God's Word forbids certain behaviors out of love- because we hurt ourselves and others outside of the boundaries. We should help those in bondage to sin find the Way to freedom from sin in Christ! We as disciples of Christ should seek healing and peace- but not a compromising peace that whitewashes sin and condones destructive behavior. The next few years will be most decisive for all Christian churches, I believe.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

RomePunk:Christinianity is dying in Europe in all its forms. It's hardly a Catholic phenomenon. Protestant communions are stronger in America as well. However, The Vatican itself is quite faithful, and very conservative. And AmChurch's independent streak only hurts us. Catechesis was horrible in through the 60's 70's, and 80's. It's just now improving. Rome is the only place that seemed to understand that Vatican II was not a modernist reformation.

I know Christianity is dying throughout Europe.

But that hardly contradicts my contention that the AmChurch's independence helps to explain why Catholicism is stronger here. In general, Catholicism tends to be stronger whereever it is a minority religion or has been historically persecuted or sided with the historically persecuted(like with Ireland).

Explain to me what Catechesis was?

As I understand it, that within RCC, there is an official position and then there are a number of semi-autonomous positions. And that part of the corruption of the AmChurch stems from its extreme hierarchical concentration with the official conservative-position holders holding and maintaining a predominance in the top positions.

That would indicate that it is they, not the liberals, who bear more culpability for the recent abuses of authority by the RCChurch in the US.

Saying that all Christians should be dedicated to making all abortions illegal again sets up the dogmatic tradition of viewing human life/being as beginning at conception as essential, when its not. It also goes against the separation of Church and State understood correctly as referring to their autonomy, wherein believers can seek to change laws based on their religiously-based convictions, but must be willing to work within the democratic process(and translate their political views into more secular terms to frame them within the public square).

Similarly, with homosexuality, we can't let another Galileo get pulled on the Church. We have to critically take into account the fact that one's homosexual orientation, unlike one's lifestyle, is not chosen and is likely due to the hormonal balance that was formed while we were fetuses. If our positions dismiss this fact then we will lose credibility as we elevate tradition to the same level as scripture or misinterpret scripture as being a blue-print for right conduct in every conceivable ethical situation.

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

News: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/jan-june04/sb_4-23.html

The Catholic Church's influence on politicians
RAY SUAREZ: We have very little time but a quit comment on the announcement of the Catholic Church that it is going to ask priests in the United States not to give communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights.

MARK SHIELDS: It was not the Catholic Church. It was Cardinal Arinze, who is a Nigerian cardinal and said it in a press questioning. There is a question here of whether the Holy Eucharist Communion will be used as a political football.

Cardinal McCarrick, the cardinal archbishop of Baltimore [sic] right now has been meeting, trying to come up with some sort of a prudential decision on this. I mean I think there are those in the Church who recognize that a Mary Landrieu, the Democratic senator from Louisiana has her seat in the Senate in large part because the cardinal archbishop of New Orleans came out against her because she had cast some pro-choice votes in the Senate.

So I think, you know, there is a real question, but there is a question as well, what do you believe and what does a Catholic believe and John Kerry is... has yet to talk about the poor, has yet to talk about universal health insurance, other issues that deeply concern the Catholic Church.

RAY SUAREZ: And quickly, David.

DAVID BROOKS: I guess I think the Catholic Church has a right to issue instructions on the Church teachings. I don't think it will affect politics one way or the other.

RAY SUAREZ: You don't see this as the thin edge of the wedge for the rest of this campaign season?

DAVID BROOKS: No, I really think John Kerry's Catholicism will not be a major issue.

© source where applicable

Copyright © 2004 MacNeil/Lehrer Productions. All Rights Reserved.

[Alden]

When I lost my first child to miscarriage I mourned the loss of a life- a child I would never see or hold.

That's very, very sad. I know this isn't the same, but I have a somewhat related feeling everytime I wonder what it would have been to be a younger brother instead of the oldest child. My father's 1st wife ended a pregnancy.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I found out when I was seventeen that my mother was pregnant with a fourth child. My third younger sister was then born on my 18th birthday. We have a very close relationship and my relationships with my other sisters improved after she was born.

When our parents first told us about the pregnancy, we weren't allowed to tell anyone else, because we were afraid for a miscarriage. I found out that some years earlier my mom had gotten pregnant before and then miscarried. After, my third sister was born, my mom got her utopian cords tied because my family couldn't afford yet another child. If the earlier pregnancy hadn't miscarried, my mom probably would have gotten her utopian cords tied then, but because of the miscarriage I now have my sister Cassandra who is the joy of my life.

Given that families do try and limit the number of children that they have, when I consider the staggering number of abortions, I have to also consider how many of the children that they had later might not have ever come into existence if their parents hadn't decided to have abortions earlier on.

dlw

[Socrates]

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
23 April 2004
www.lifenews.com/nat465.html

[It's the height of absurdity for Kerry et al. to claim that the Church is exceeding its mandate. No one forces these professing Catholics to join the church, and if they violate its rules, they have no moral case to whinge if the church excommunicates them. As Elysian says, so what if the pro-baby-butchery Dem politicians leave the church officially -- they have already left spiritually. Typical of DLW to defend radical baby-hating obsessively pro-abortion Dems and side with atheistics. :soc:]

Vatican City (LifeNews.com) -- A leading Catholic official said on Friday that Catholic priests should withhold communion from politicians who refuse to recant their pro-abortion positions. Meanwhile, presumptive Democratic nominee John Kerry says religion and politics shouldn't mix.

Cardinal Francis Arinze spoke at a news conference Friday on the Catholic Church's efforts to keep Mass sacred. Regarding communion, a new document says those who know they are guilty of "grave sin" should attend confession prior to taking communion.

When asked whether that meant Kerry should not be allowed to take communion, Arinze said the church's position was clear and Catholic bishops in the U.S. should decide the matter, according to an AP report.

"The norm of the church is clear,'' he said. "The Catholic Church exists in the United States and there are bishops there. Let them interpret it.''

But when asked about "unambiguously pro-abortion" Catholic politicians, Arinze said such officials are "not fit" to receive communion.

"Yes," Arinze responded. "If the person should not receive it, then it should not be given. Objectively, the answer is there."

Responding to Arinze, Kerry spokesman David Wade reiterated Kerry's position that there should be a separation of church and state.

"The decisions he will make as president will be guided by his obligation to all the people of our country and to the Constitution of the United States," Wade said in a statement. "Every American -- whether they be Jewish, Catholic, Protestant or any other faith -- must believe their president is representing them."

Kerry is slated to hold a rally today with leaders of abortion advocacy groups in anticipation of their pro-abortion march on Sunday.

"The Church's custom shows that it is necessary for each person to examine himself at depth and that anyone who is conscious of grave sin should not celebrate or receive the Body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession," the new document says.

Meanwhile, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington is heading up a task force for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on how to handle politicians like Kerry whose views run counter to the church.

St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke said he would offer the politician a blessing rather than giving him full communion and Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston has told Catholic elected officials who are pro-abortion that they should not be receiving communion.

Kerry drew criticism for taking communion at a Catholic church in Boston on Easter.

Arinze is a Nigerian who has been mentioned as a possible successor to Pope John Paul II.

[Socrates]

I know Christianity is dying throughout Europe.

Of course, because of the widespread compromise.

Similarly, with homosexuality, we can't let another Galileo get pulled on the Church.

Indeed we should not. Never again should the church make the mistake of interpreting the Bible to fit with the "science" of the day, which was Ptolemaic astronomy taught by the Aristotelian scientific establishment at the unversities. See The Galileo affair: history or heroic hagiography I'm getting thoroughly sick of scientific ignoramuses hurling the Galileo canard at the Church or Bible-believers, when in reality it shows the folly of the compromise that the critics advocate!

Similarly they should not take the word of an economist like DLW or gay scientists like LeVay with an agenda to reinterpret the Bible's teaching on sexual morality. Jesus Himself affirmed that marriage was for a man and a woman (Matthew 19:3-6).

[LGM]

...and this just in...

VATICAN CITY (AP) - In a follow-up to his announcement yesterday, a top Vatican cardinal said that priests must not allow Catholic politicians who work or campaign on the Sabbath to light any of those little magic candles you see in some Catholic churches.

Cardinal Francis Arinze spoke at a news conference to launch a new Vatican directive clamping down on disobedient Catholic politicians he said will no longer be given access to any Catholic magic.

"No more are we gonna allow politicians who don't do exactly what I say god wants them to do, to have access to any of our Catholic mojo", said an obviously perturbed Cardinal Arinze. "This means no more communion wafers, no more holy water, no praying to the virgin. Why I don't think they should even be allowed to sniff the magic incense we wave around during Mass".
When asked if these Catholic politicians would be asked to leave the church the Cardinal replied "Please..., were right in the middle of a fund drive and an election year. And unlike everyone else, these guys have to make their tax returns public, which show their charitable contributions. We're not that foolish. They can still come to church and give us money, but they will just have to sit in the back pews, and we can't have the father bless them on the way out."

LGM
...and in other news, John Kerry announced that if elected President, he would consider passing a law not allowing any Catholic Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Rooks the right to vote, if it can be shown that they knowingly covered up, or looked the other way, during the countless child sex abuse scandals in their diocese...