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Divine revelation

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    I used to believe that myself. Then some friends of mine, whom I was trying to lead to Christ, kept asking me why they should believe what I was telling them. I gave them the best answers I could, and they would ask me why they should believe those answers. This went on for quite some time, and it got to a point where I had no answer except "Because I say so." But I could not give my friends that answer, because I knew it was really no answer. And at the moment I realized that, I knew that my Christian beliefs were indefensible. I could not believe that something must be true for no better reason than my personal conviction that it was true.
    Did you ever explore the theology of John Scottus Eriugena? I think, in an earlier response to you in another thread I posted a link to a summary of his theology in the the Standford Dictionary of Philosophy. Related to his view of nature, is his view of revelation, which is, of course, an extreme minority view among Christians, but I think it is quite profound. There may be a variety of reasons to believe in God or Christianity or other religions, or not, but ultimately those reasons can never encompass God, who cannot be defined by human reason. That is no reason to reject rationality, may it never be so, but to recongnize the current limits of our own understanding, a recognition that need not be dependent upon revelation. Likewise, for Eriugena, revelation itself may be helpful (for some) but not strictly necessary to come to an appreciation of the mystery of God.
    Last edited by robrecht; 06-23-2014, 06:32 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #32
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Did you ever explore the theology of John Scottus Eriugena? I think, in an earlier response to you in another thread I posted a link to a summary of his theology in the the Standford Dictionary of Philosophy. Related to his view of nature, is his view of revelation, which is, of course, an extreme minority view among Christians, but I think it is quite profound. There may be a variety of reasons to believe in God or Christianity or other religions, or not, but ultimately those reasons can never encompass God, who cannot be defined by human reason. That is no reason to reject rationality, may it never be so, but to recongnize the current limits of our own understanding, a recognition that need not be dependent upon revelation. Likewise, for Eriugena, revelation itself may be helpful (for some) but not strictly necessary to come to an appreciation of the mystery of God.
      I am familiar with John Scottus Eriugena, and for various reasons I doubt his views would impress atheists and agnostics today. He is a strong supporter of free will, maybe a libertarian free will. His works are worth a read to understand a unique view of a philosophy of Christian Theology.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I am familiar with John Scottus Eriugena, and for various reasons I doubt his views would impress atheists and agnostics today. He is a strong supporter of free will, maybe a libertarian free will. His works are worth a read to understand a unique view of a philosophy of Christian Theology.
        I know Doug has already found a description of Eriugena's theology interesting and my question directed to him involves a more specific corollary of of his theological perspective as it relates to the idea of revelation. Whether he, or anyone else for that matter, is impressed or not is entirely irrelevant to my question.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Yes it did. The Bible is divinely revealed.
          So, are you saying that you are a "divinely inspired" reader? If so, how do I distinguish you from the other million divinely inspired readers with a different view from you?

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            I used to believe that myself. Then some friends of mine, whom I was trying to lead to Christ, kept asking me why they should believe what I was telling them. I gave them the best answers I could, and they would ask me why they should believe those answers. This went on for quite some time, and it got to a point where I had no answer except "Because I say so." But I could not give my friends that answer, because I knew it was really no answer. And at the moment I realized that, I knew that my Christian beliefs were indefensible. I could not believe that something must be true for no better reason than my personal conviction that it was true.
            I'm not trying to be flippant here, but, couldn't someone honestly ask why they should believe you about anything? For instance, we meet and I tell you that I'm married, (not that you care, just to set up a hypothetical)
            you: ok, why should I believe you?
            me: here's my wedding ring
            you: why should I believe that? There are people who wear wedding rings who aren't in fact married.
            me: here's my marriage license!
            you: why should I believe that? You could have bought that off of the internet.
            me: why would I do that?
            you: to try to prove you're married
            me: OK... Here's my wife
            you: how do I know that? That could be your sister for all I know.

            My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              I'm not trying to be flippant here, but, couldn't someone honestly ask why they should believe you about anything? For instance, we meet and I tell you that I'm married, (not that you care, just to set up a hypothetical)
              you: ok, why should I believe you?
              me: here's my wedding ring
              you: why should I believe that? There are people who wear wedding rings who aren't in fact married.
              me: here's my marriage license!
              you: why should I believe that? You could have bought that off of the internet.
              me: why would I do that?
              you: to try to prove you're married
              me: OK... Here's my wife
              you: how do I know that? That could be your sister for all I know.

              My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me.
              Good point. For those that continue to pursue the 'why' long enough, I think they eventually find that everyone just believes certain things axiomatically. From there, one can only show contradictions between things that follow from held axioms. Truth and falsity cease to be real goals.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                He didn't say "the representative" -- BIG difference.
                It does not make any difference, I am neither a 'representative nor the 'representative.' I am simply a very fallible human Baha'i by commitment in faith to the belief system.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2014, 12:33 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  That tells me why you believe it. It doesn't tell me why I should believe it.
                  The reason you believe would be dependent on your own independent search for knowledge and degree understanding and certainty of belief.

                  I believe that there is sufficient grounds of for belief that the Revelation revealed the standards for the New Age and world we are entering into since 1844. For example: The relative evolving nature of human knowledge and science with the Harmony of Religion and Science, Also the independent search for truth, social and legal equality of women, the end of all forms of slavery and servitude, the inherent equality of all races and ethnic groups, compulsory obligation to educate all children, and the mandate for international standards in all commerce, trade, and international law. Also a modern cosmogony in harmony with today's science.

                  There are other reasons I believe, which I have stated in the past, and may provide more in the future. The main reason I reject the ancient religions is they cling to ancient paradigms with little or no relevance to today' knowledge of the world we live in today. There view of God is most often archaic, limited and exclusive. I actually believe these ancient God(s) do not exists, and they represent a very human limited view of the greater 'Source' some call God(s).
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2014, 12:39 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    I'm not trying to be flippant here, but, couldn't someone honestly ask why they should believe you about anything? For instance, we meet and I tell you that I'm married, (not that you care, just to set up a hypothetical)
                    you: ok, why should I believe you?
                    me: here's my wedding ring...


                    My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me.
                    People are asking us to not only believe that there is this book written 2,000 years ago that contains all Truth from the One and Only God of the Universe, but that they alone can properly understand and interpret this Holy Book for the rest of humanity despite the fact that there are other such truth claims.

                    This is much more than asking us to believe you have a spouse.

                    NORM
                    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      It does not make any difference, I am neither a 'representative nor the 'representative.' I am simply a very fallible human Baha'i by commitment in faith to the belief system.
                      So, that's not representative of Baha'i followers?

                      I think I'll take Carrik's word on it.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        I used to believe that myself. Then some friends of mine, whom I was trying to lead to Christ, kept asking me why they should believe what I was telling them. I gave them the best answers I could, and they would ask me why they should believe those answers. This went on for quite some time, and it got to a point where I had no answer except "Because I say so." But I could not give my friends that answer, because I knew it was really no answer. And at the moment I realized that, I knew that my Christian beliefs were indefensible. I could not believe that something must be true for no better reason than my personal conviction that it was true.
                        LJ hit the nail on the head. If a doctor said you had terminal cancer, I bet you would halt everything in your life because it would be the single most important objective to find out if his diagnosis was true and what the solution was. It shouldn't so much be about someone convincing you their belief is true. It's that the repercussions are so great if it IS true. Just that alone inspired me to pursue whether it was actually true or not for myself, which is what I did as a Christian. Some people aren't as inspired by things like that. Some are, some aren't. It just is what it is... a mystery

                        That's what has always puzzled me about you guys. I would think that since you spend so much time meticulously analyzing the arguments for Christianity, you'd actually spend as much time analyzing it yourself with the endless resources we have available for just that endeavor. If you've already convinced yourself it's not true, then I can't figure out why you're still here arguing about it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          It does not make any difference, I am neither a 'representative nor the 'representative.' I am simply a very fallible human Baha'i by commitment in faith to the belief system.
                          It doesn't work like that. Your actions reflect on each and every group to which you belong. That's true for all of us. It holds for political parties, companies, belief systems, hobbyist groups, college organizations...you name it. The only way to avoid this is to keep your associations private, but the feasibility of that is extremely limited.
                          I'm not here anymore.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            LJ hit the nail on the head. If a doctor said you had terminal cancer, I bet you would halt everything in your life because it would be the single most important objective to find out if his diagnosis was true and what the solution was. It shouldn't so much be about someone convincing you their belief is true. It's that the repercussions are so great if it IS true. Just that alone inspired me to pursue whether it was actually true or not for myself, which is what I did as a Christian. Some people aren't as inspired by things like that. Some are, some aren't. It just is what it is... a mystery

                            That's what has always puzzled me about you guys. I would think that since you spend so much time meticulously analyzing the arguments for Christianity, you'd actually spend as much time analyzing it yourself with the endless resources we have available for just that endeavor. If you've already convinced yourself it's not true, then I can't figure out why you're still here arguing about it.
                            You sound as if you think no one has done this and come away with a different conclusion.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                              You sound as if you think no one has done this and come away with a different conclusion.
                              That certainly wasn't what I was implying, as this is all too obvious. But I find it very telling the extent of the knowledge level in here in regards to Christian theology and especially history expressed by the anti-Christian crowd, and how often they get facts and figures, even sometimes basic facts and figures, completely wrong. When I began to doubt my faith years ago, prior to my extensive research and study, a lot of them show the same level of knowledge I was at.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                                Aside from your say-so, why should I believe that?

                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                As you described above it is not easy to give an answer. It would take a significant effort for me to explain why I believe it, but perhaps I will work on that.
                                If you do decide to work on it, I hope you will keep in mind the difference between things that convince you and things that ought to convince me.

                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                Bottom line though is that my life with Christ leaves no doubts. Questions, yes.
                                Your life in Christ is not likely to be of any epistemological use to me.
                                Last edited by Doug Shaver; 06-24-2014, 03:38 AM.

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