Originally posted by Doug Shaver
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Divine revelation
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Last edited by robrecht; 06-23-2014, 06:32 AM.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostDid you ever explore the theology of John Scottus Eriugena? I think, in an earlier response to you in another thread I posted a link to a summary of his theology in the the Standford Dictionary of Philosophy. Related to his view of nature, is his view of revelation, which is, of course, an extreme minority view among Christians, but I think it is quite profound. There may be a variety of reasons to believe in God or Christianity or other religions, or not, but ultimately those reasons can never encompass God, who cannot be defined by human reason. That is no reason to reject rationality, may it never be so, but to recongnize the current limits of our own understanding, a recognition that need not be dependent upon revelation. Likewise, for Eriugena, revelation itself may be helpful (for some) but not strictly necessary to come to an appreciation of the mystery of God.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI am familiar with John Scottus Eriugena, and for various reasons I doubt his views would impress atheists and agnostics today. He is a strong supporter of free will, maybe a libertarian free will. His works are worth a read to understand a unique view of a philosophy of Christian Theology.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostYes it did. The Bible is divinely revealed.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI used to believe that myself. Then some friends of mine, whom I was trying to lead to Christ, kept asking me why they should believe what I was telling them. I gave them the best answers I could, and they would ask me why they should believe those answers. This went on for quite some time, and it got to a point where I had no answer except "Because I say so." But I could not give my friends that answer, because I knew it was really no answer. And at the moment I realized that, I knew that my Christian beliefs were indefensible. I could not believe that something must be true for no better reason than my personal conviction that it was true.
you: ok, why should I believe you?
me: here's my wedding ring
you: why should I believe that? There are people who wear wedding rings who aren't in fact married.
me: here's my marriage license!
you: why should I believe that? You could have bought that off of the internet.
me: why would I do that?
you: to try to prove you're married
me: OK... Here's my wife
you: how do I know that? That could be your sister for all I know.
My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI'm not trying to be flippant here, but, couldn't someone honestly ask why they should believe you about anything? For instance, we meet and I tell you that I'm married, (not that you care, just to set up a hypothetical)
you: ok, why should I believe you?
me: here's my wedding ring
you: why should I believe that? There are people who wear wedding rings who aren't in fact married.
me: here's my marriage license!
you: why should I believe that? You could have bought that off of the internet.
me: why would I do that?
you: to try to prove you're married
me: OK... Here's my wife
you: how do I know that? That could be your sister for all I know.
My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHe didn't say "the representative" -- BIG difference.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2014, 12:33 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostThat tells me why you believe it. It doesn't tell me why I should believe it.
I believe that there is sufficient grounds of for belief that the Revelation revealed the standards for the New Age and world we are entering into since 1844. For example: The relative evolving nature of human knowledge and science with the Harmony of Religion and Science, Also the independent search for truth, social and legal equality of women, the end of all forms of slavery and servitude, the inherent equality of all races and ethnic groups, compulsory obligation to educate all children, and the mandate for international standards in all commerce, trade, and international law. Also a modern cosmogony in harmony with today's science.
There are other reasons I believe, which I have stated in the past, and may provide more in the future. The main reason I reject the ancient religions is they cling to ancient paradigms with little or no relevance to today' knowledge of the world we live in today. There view of God is most often archaic, limited and exclusive. I actually believe these ancient God(s) do not exists, and they represent a very human limited view of the greater 'Source' some call God(s).Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2014, 12:39 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI'm not trying to be flippant here, but, couldn't someone honestly ask why they should believe you about anything? For instance, we meet and I tell you that I'm married, (not that you care, just to set up a hypothetical)
you: ok, why should I believe you?
me: here's my wedding ring...
My point is, to someone who didn't know better, I don't know that I could defend my marriage if they didn't want to believe me.
This is much more than asking us to believe you have a spouse.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt does not make any difference, I am neither a 'representative nor the 'representative.' I am simply a very fallible human Baha'i by commitment in faith to the belief system.
I think I'll take Carrik's word on it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI used to believe that myself. Then some friends of mine, whom I was trying to lead to Christ, kept asking me why they should believe what I was telling them. I gave them the best answers I could, and they would ask me why they should believe those answers. This went on for quite some time, and it got to a point where I had no answer except "Because I say so." But I could not give my friends that answer, because I knew it was really no answer. And at the moment I realized that, I knew that my Christian beliefs were indefensible. I could not believe that something must be true for no better reason than my personal conviction that it was true.
That's what has always puzzled me about you guys. I would think that since you spend so much time meticulously analyzing the arguments for Christianity, you'd actually spend as much time analyzing it yourself with the endless resources we have available for just that endeavor. If you've already convinced yourself it's not true, then I can't figure out why you're still here arguing about it.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt does not make any difference, I am neither a 'representative nor the 'representative.' I am simply a very fallible human Baha'i by commitment in faith to the belief system.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostLJ hit the nail on the head. If a doctor said you had terminal cancer, I bet you would halt everything in your life because it would be the single most important objective to find out if his diagnosis was true and what the solution was. It shouldn't so much be about someone convincing you their belief is true. It's that the repercussions are so great if it IS true. Just that alone inspired me to pursue whether it was actually true or not for myself, which is what I did as a Christian. Some people aren't as inspired by things like that. Some are, some aren't. It just is what it is... a mystery
That's what has always puzzled me about you guys. I would think that since you spend so much time meticulously analyzing the arguments for Christianity, you'd actually spend as much time analyzing it yourself with the endless resources we have available for just that endeavor. If you've already convinced yourself it's not true, then I can't figure out why you're still here arguing about it.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostYou sound as if you think no one has done this and come away with a different conclusion.
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Originally posted by Doug ShaverAside from your say-so, why should I believe that?
Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostAs you described above it is not easy to give an answer. It would take a significant effort for me to explain why I believe it, but perhaps I will work on that.
Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostBottom line though is that my life with Christ leaves no doubts. Questions, yes.Last edited by Doug Shaver; 06-24-2014, 03:38 AM.
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