Don Carson on Hell

[Scrawly]

Note:

I will most likely refrain from engaging future posts on this thread as I have business to attend to and my health needs attention. Rem and myself also agreed to bring this discussion to an end so this seems like a good place for me to bow out. I thank Rem for taking the time to interact on this important matter and I enjoyed the discussion, feedback, and participation from others.

[apostoli]

1) I imagine the "lake of fire" (the precise nature of which is unknown) is "outside" the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:15), so I don't see the issue here despite metaphorical language and the like. What does seem abundantly clear is that the lake of fire represents "torment" that last "forever and ever". Moreover, cessation of existence for the enemies of God is not found anywhere in the texts, rather, the enemies of God are found in the same "place" as the devil himself.

2) According to D.A Carson in regards to Jesus' words that: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46). He notes the following:

"The word punishment is graphic and at least suggests suffering. More, in the context of first century Palestinian Judaism, Jesus could not have used such words as these without being understood to be in line with Pharisaic beliefs on the matter, beliefs that also took Gehenna as a model of conscious eternal punishment. If Jesus wanted to distance himself from that view and make his espousal of annihilationism abundantly clear; he certainly forfeited numerous opportunities to do so(1).

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(1) D. A. Carson, The Gagging of God (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), pg 535.
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I will most likely refrain from engaging future posts on this thread as I have business to attend to and my health needs attention.

I respect your need to move on. I too have had health issues of late and all the appointments at GPs, Specialists, Radiology & Pathology do impact on our time - which is the reason I've been somewhat quiet lately here at TWEB...I hope all goes well with you...

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I'm somewhat ambivalent on the fate of the wicked (it doesn't really concern me). However, appealing to the protestant idea of "sola scriptura", I find no support for the ideas of the "immortality of the soul" (Jesus says "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in γέεννα (Gehenna=hell=the Lake of Fire)". Mt 10:28) , or perpetual torment of the very wicked, or consciousness after death (I tend to side with Luther's interpretation that the dead are as if asleep).

I'm RCC, and the range of opinions therein is very wide. For instance: About 20 years ago the idea of Limbo was determined to be a philosophic premise and is no longer official policy (believe what you want). Purgatory has been under review since, and seems to fall into the same bucket. In the Nicean churches (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc) all that is asked of us is to believe "...He [Jesus] will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end..."

[The Remonstrant]

I suggest the starting point for discussion of the topic is Genesis 3:22-24 which, without the need for interpretation, explicitly demands that mankind was created mortal and if perpetuation of existence is to be attained (immortality), mankind needs access to the tree of life. Now flip forward to Revelation 22:2 & 14 and we discover the tree of life in the New Jerusalem. The presumption is that those resurrected who do not have access to the tree of life will not have permanence ie: those referred to at Rev 22:15 which are excluded from access to the New Jerusalem, thus do not have access to the tree of life (nb: if we take Revelation at its prophetic word, then it is implicit that there are those wicked persons who weren't thrown into the Lake of Fire ). The presumption is that those who do not have access to the tree of life will undergo a second death. Of course: God in his omnipotence might preserve these in some other way, but scripture is totally silent on the matter...

ps: According to formal Rabbinic opinion throughout the centuries the unrighteous go through a short period of purgation (maximum of 12 months). Then the very wicked are obliterated...

1) I imagine the "lake of fire" (the precise nature of which is unknown) is "outside" the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:15), so I don't see the issue here despite metaphorical language and the like. What does seem abundantly clear is that the lake of fire represents "torment" that last "forever and ever". Moreover, cessation of existence for the enemies of God is not found anywhere in the texts, rather, the enemies of God are found in the same "place" as the devil himself.

Final Punishment in The Apocalypse: Varied Imagery

¹⁴ Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. ¹⁵ Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Rev.22:14,15)¹

In Revelation the lake of fire symbolizes the end of the unrighteous, which is "the second death" (20:14,15). It is my contention that the second death is the final death of the unrighteous in the world/age to come. It thus parallels the first death, the physical death of persons in the present age and cannot be twisted to mean something like unending torturous existence (cf. my messages #98 and #116 above).

The lake of fire figure is conspicuously absent in Rev.22:15. In its place we find the aspect of divine judgement being emphasized is that of exclusion. Rev.22:15 is not actually a part of John of Patmos' vision of the new heavens and the new earth, seeing as the vision concludes in verse 6. Unlike those who persevere in Christ and are given the crown of life (2:10), the unrighteous will have no share in the tree of life in the paradise of God (cf. 2:7; 22:14,15,19). Rev.22:15 is not all that different from 21:27 where we learn that "nothing unclean will ever enter [the city], nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." The same basic truth of exclusion from the new Jerusalem is suggested in both texts. Concerning the city, in 21:25 John writes "its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there" (cf. 22:5). This is another way of saying that the gates will never be shut. There will be no danger present in the new heavens and the new earth. And why would there be? In the new heavens and new earth the curse and "accursed things" are no longer (22:3). The wicked will have already been done away with (20:14,15). The gates thus may remain forever open in the new Jerusalem, for the saints of God will have nothing to fear in the coming age.

Lastly, it should be noted that 22:15 is remarkably similar to 21:8 where "the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, . . . murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars" are warned that "their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."^{2 3} Both texts—21:8 and 22:15—serve as warnings intended to motivate the repentance of individuals before the return of Christ. In The Apocalypse humans whose names are not found in the book of life are pictured as being tossed into the lake of fire on the day of judgement (20:15; 21:8).⁴ Elsewhere the finally unrepentant are portrayed as being excluded from the tree of life in God's city. Both ultimately convey the same basic reality (albeit from different angles): the fate of the unrighteous culminates in death, non-life, destruction, cessation of being.

Perpetual Life in Torment Is Not the Penalty for Sin

Those who read everlasting existence into the aforementioned texts are only able to do so by negating the Old Testament imagery employed by John of Patmos in Revelation. Death as the cessation of life and the penalty for sin is a teaching spanning the entirety of Scripture, from the first book to the last. We are thus given no solid reason for understanding the second death of Revelation to serve as a kind of nonsensical metaphor for everlasting life in torture (ŕ la Augustine). Furthermore, banishment from the tree of life unambiguously entails the loss of immortality in Scripture. For this very purpose our first parents were cast out of Eden: that they would not be immortalized in their sinful, fallen state (Gen.3:22-24).

Ongoing torment is not the penalty of sin enunciated throughout Scripture. When the Bible is taken as a whole and not isolated to four or five isolated proof-texts, the very notion of human beings living everlastingly unreconciled to God, the author and source of all life, will be seen as an impossibility. Conversely, the eventual death of all persons permanently cut off from Jesus Christ is inevitable, for they will be cut off from the sustainer of life himself and thus no longer be.


Notes

¹ All Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version (ESV) in this message.

² Sorcerers, the sexually immoral, murderers, and liars (those who practice falsehood) are listed in both Rev.21:8 and 22:15 as persons of a certain immoral character who will have no place in the new heavens, the new earth and the new Jerusalem.

³ Though often treated as such by traditionalists, Rev.22:15 does not provide evidence for the everlasting existence of the unrighteous "outside the gates" of the new Jerusalem. As we have observed above, the unrighteous will have no access to the tree of life (22:14,15,19). This consideration alone renders the notion of the unrighteous inheriting immortality suspect at the outset. We are given no indication that the tree of life symbolizes anything less than immortality in Revelation, or that John of Patmos is employing the concept in some way radically different from how it is used in the Genesis account. The soundest inference to be made then is that those who are unable to partake of the tree of life will perish.

⁴ As I have conceded elsewhere, it may be maintained that the devil will be literally tormented endlessly (based on John's vision in Rev.20:10), but this same description of prolonged torment is never applied to lost human beings. Rather, in the case of human beings the lake of fire signifies the second death (2:11; 20:6,14,15; 21:8). That said, I do believe that the imagery following Rev.20:10 indicates that all evil will be done away with permanently when the first heavens and earth pass along with the former things (21:4). According to this interpretation, 20:10 must be seen as a hyperbolic declaration in John's vision.

[apostoli]

1) I imagine the "lake of fire" (the precise nature of which is unknown) is "outside" the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:15), so I don't see the issue here despite metaphorical language and the like. What does seem abundantly clear is that the lake of fire represents "torment" that last "forever and ever".

That the "Lake of Fire" is excluded from the New Jerusalem is obvious, a no brainer, as according to A.John's Revelation all evil is excluded from the New Jerusalem. As for the "Lake of Fire" representing "torment" that is perpetual, it is worth noting that in Rev 19:20 which refers to the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the Lake makes no mention of eternal torment. However, Rev 20:10 does, but in a singularity sense (ie: the Devil)...

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Location does not necessarily indicate like circumstance...For instance: Death & Hades are non-entities and therefore incapable of torment (see Rev 20:14). Imu, the whole idea of eternal torment ranks with the stink of the money raising churches (eg: the selling of indulgences in medieval times and the money grubbing activities of the independent churches). Imo, the whole idea of "eternal torment" is simply the blackmail of ill educated people.

In my experience of the RCC, the emphasis is on the known (salvation) not the unknown (the ultimate fate of the evil doers). Thus in my experience of the RCC, the emphasis is on "our hope", "the promise" and preservation of our salvation, possibly ideas foreign to many branches of the independent churches within protestantism...

Moreover, cessation of existence for the enemies of God is not found anywhere in the texts, rather, the enemies of God are found in the same "place" as the devil himself.

Have a read of the OT. Therein God (YHWH) is regularly annihilating anyone who opposes his will... As for Revelation, and as Rev 20:14 attests the non-entities death and hades are thrown into the Lake. As non-entities they cannot be tormented. Also note the consistency of Rev 21 wherein we learn the former things pass away = cease to exist....To contradict such you have to propose that in the coming age, death and hades persist which is a total (100%) contradiction of the final chapters of A.John's Revelation...

[The Remonstrant]

I now leave you with this astute observation by J.I Packer:

"the feelings that make people want conditionalism to be true seem to me to reflect, not superior spiritual sensitivity, but secular sentimentalism which assumes that in heaven our feelings about others will be as at present, and our joy in the manifesting of God's justice will be no greater than it is now."(1)

Note: I am not saying that the Annihilationist's position is devoid of exegetical support, but there does seem to be an emotional drive to re-interpret these difficult texts and it very well may be that this disposition has predisposed them to interpret the texts in a less than objective manner.

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(1) J. I. Packer, "Evangelicals and the Way of Salvation: New Challenges to the Gospel — Universalism, and Justification," in Evangelical Affirmations, ed. Kenneth Kantzer and Carl F. H. Henry (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1990), 126

Clark Pinnock on the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind in Four Views on Hell¹

. . . are we [annihilationists/conditionalists] being driven by subjectivist feelings that we should suppress? James I. Packer says that he objects to the sense of moral superiority he detects in critics of the traditional view and charges they are driven by secular sentimentalism. This is not altogether helpful, however. If secular sentimentality drives saintly John Stott (the person Packer is referring to), what drives Packer? Is it hardheartedness or a thirst for retribution? Enough of that! The real issue here is God's nature and the conscience, not mere human feelings. Is he the God of boundless mercy or one who tortures souls without end?²

With reference to the evangelical context, I realize that in interpreting hell as annihilation, I am adopting a minority view among evangelicals and placing myself at risk among them. Even though these same people permit dozens of differences to exist among themselves and have made many changes themselves to ancient traditions, somehow to propose this change is still forbidden. One can expect to be told that only heretics or near-heretics would think of denying the doctrine of everlasting conscious punishment and of defending annihilation. It seems a new criterion of truth has been discovered which says that if Adventists or liberals hold any view, that view must be wrong. Apparently a truth claim can be decided by its associations and does not need to be tested by public criteria in open debate. Such an argument, though useless in intelligent discussion, can be effective with the ignorant who are fooled by such rhetoric.³

. . . despite such tactics of harassment, the view [of final annihilation] is gaining ground among evangelicals. John R.W. Stott's public endorsement of it will certainly encourage this trend. In a delicious piece of irony, this is creating a measure of accreditation by association, countering the same tactics used against it. It has become all but impossible to claim that only heretics and near-heretics hold the position, though I am sure some will dismiss Stott's orthodoxy precisely on this ground. ⁴

Notes

¹ The title is borrowed from M.A. Noll's two decade-old work, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1994). (Ironically, this volume bears an endorsement from J.I. Packer himself on the back cover of the book.)

² C.H. Pinnock, "The Conditional View" in W.V. Crockett (ed.), Four Views on Hell (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), p.151., para.2.

³ Ibid., p.161, para.2 (emphasis added).

⁴ Ibid., p.162, para.2.