I would posit the theory that Judas' statement actually confirms he didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, therefore, wasn't repenting. I hold to the theory that Judas was setting up Jesus because he knew Jesus was the Messiah, but was expecting -- like most of the disciples -- that he would conquer the Roman Empire and herald in God's new Israel. By setting up Jesus, he believed he was forcing Jesus to play this messianic hand to get out of his situation (a la the people mocking Jesus to prove he's the Christ by coming down from cross). When he states that he betrayed an innocent man, he was stating that he no longer believed Jesus was the Messiah but just an ordinary man he had mistaken for the Messiah.
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Don Carson on Hell
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostGod doesn't just punish people for sins committed against him. He also punishes for sins committed against others."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostYes, I think this idea, which has no scriptural support, implicitly opens the door for universalism because it raises the obvious question: What if one stops sinning/repents?
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostFor whatever reason Carson's speech is inaudible on my computer, so I don't know what his justifications are, but I presume he appealed to Daniel 12:2 which explicicity dictates that not everyone is resurrected. As "some" awake "to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" some are not resurrected at all...as the text explicity refers to the "many" not "all".
What translation are you using to consult Daniel 12:2, by the way?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis interpretation of Daniel 12:2 seems incongruent with NT data, including Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), Revelation 20:12, and Acts 24:15 which don't seem to have any hint that the scope of the resurrection is limited. And to be honest, I don't even see any hint of a possible limited resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The use of "some" to me simply indicates that some of the people will go to A and the others will go to B.
What translation are you using to consult Daniel 12:2, by the way?
I tend to follow Luther's perspective, so I don't accept annihilationism per se , nor do I accept universalism (in the context of everybody ever born gets eternal life), nor do I accept the extraneous idea of endless punishment...Abraham sinned, David sinned extraordinarily and even Jesus sinned in the terms of Moses' ordinances but none of them sinned in the eyes of God! So, imo, there is relativity in the argument...
In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life! Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!
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Originally posted by apostoli View Post...In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life!
Now, how can someone suffer eternal destruction? I don't know, but what does seem clear is the fact that the unsaved will undergo torment in some form that will last for eternity. This hardly paints the picture of eternal life, which in the Bible, generally refers to a blessed state of those in Christ enjoying God in the heavenly realm, which also is eternal in it's duration.
Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!Last edited by Scrawly; 07-01-2014, 05:45 PM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostKJV! But pick any one, they all read the same to me...
I tend to follow Luther's perspective, so I don't accept annihilationism per se , nor do I accept universalism (in the context of everybody ever born gets eternal life), nor do I accept the extraneous idea of endless punishment...Abraham sinned, David sinned extraordinarily and even Jesus sinned in the terms of Moses' ordinances but none of them sinned in the eyes of God! So, imo, there is relativity in the argument...
In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life! Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!
My post was actually in response to your claim that not all will be resurrected at the final day. I am maintaining that the Bible is clear that everybody will be resurrected (except for those already alive).
Also, I consider myself an annihilationist but I do believe there is a period of torment in proportion to how much one sinned. It might even be for a long period of time."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Scrawly View Post"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2Thes. 1:9)
Now, how can someone suffer eternal destruction? I don't know, but what does seem clear is the fact that the unsaved will undergo torment in some form that will last for eternity. This hardly paints the picture of eternal life, which in the Bible, generally refers to a blessed state of those in Christ enjoying God in the heavenly realm, which also is eternal in it's duration.
Refer to the above - the bolded is your key word.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA couple things:
My post was actually in response to your claim that not all will be resurrected at the final day.
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI am maintaining that the Bible is clear that everybody will be resurrected (except for those already alive).
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAlso, I consider myself an annihilationist but I do believe there is a period of torment in proportion to how much one sinned. It might even be for a long period of time.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis interpretation of Daniel 12:2 seems incongruent with NT data, including Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), Revelation 20:12, and Acts 24:15 which don't seem to have any hint that the scope of the resurrection is limited. And to be honest, I don't even see any hint of a possible limited resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The use of "some" to me simply indicates that some of the people will go to A and the others will go to B.
At Dan 12:2 we have the revelation of two classes who are resurrected "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". But note the first clause of the text which puts a limitation on who is resurrected "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"..."many" doesn't mean "all" in anyone's language...
As for Mt 25. Note the virgins who had the door shut to them...
Acts 24:15, seems to fit Daniel 12:2 very well, and imo, is not all inclusive. Depends on how one defines the "unjust"...Last edited by apostoli; 07-01-2014, 11:08 PM.
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