Don Carson on Hell

[apostoli]

Ok thanks for answering my question.

I wouldn't want to believe what you do and have to face the Lord about it.

That would be frightening.

Why so? I believe in Jesus not Moses...

[foudroyant]

Didn't Moses speak of the Lord Jesus (Deuteronomy 18:15) and didn't the Lord Jesus speak of Moses (Luke 24:44)?

[apostoli]

Didn't Moses speak of the Lord Jesus (Deuteronomy 18:15) and didn't the Lord Jesus speak of Moses (Luke 24:44)?

all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


Concerning Lk 24:44: specifically, in which of Moses' Ordinances is Jesus spoken of? The answer is NONE...

The lore of Moses does point to Jesus (the Memra of YHWH according to the Aramaic Targums=the Logos of God which revealed himself to Moses and exclusively communicated with Moses), but Moses' ordinances don't!!! The reality is Jesus regularly refuted Moses' ordinances. Simply read the Gospels for proof...

I do agree that Deut 18:15 is a prediction of the Christ...but note that this prediction is not part of Moses' ordinances...

_____________________

In the English language there is a difference between Lore and Law...

Lore=a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject held by a particular group.

Law=the system of rules which a particular community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members.

[Obsidian]

It says law of Moses.

[apostoli]

It says law of Moses.

Does it? Or are we simply confronted by a difference in language (translational obscurities.)

In the English language there is a difference between Lore and Law...

Lore=a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject held by a particular group.

Law=the system of rules which a particular community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members.

Moses' ordinances do not contain any histories, they are simply blind enactments imposed on an ignorant people (possibly why the only people I know of that observes his extremes are the Taliban).

Notice, that when A.Paul councils the Judasises, he defends his argument by appealing to the Decalogue not Moses' ordinances...(as does Jesus)...

[Scrawly]

In your paradigm, the fact remains that to undergo eternal punishment, one has to have eternal life...

Yes, if you are intent on defining everlasting consciousness as "eternal life", then you are correct.

Wicked: Eternal living in hell

Righteous (in Christ): Eternal living in heaven

[apostoli]

Yes, if you are intent on defining everlasting consciousness as "eternal life", then you are correct.

Wicked: Eternal living in hell

Righteous (in Christ): Eternal living in heaven

How else is one to define "eternal life". Either one has existence or not! The idea "life" connotes "conscious existence" whether it be pleasurable or not. However, the metaphor of the lake of fire connotes destruction eg: when the chaff is thrown into the flames it becomes dust = ceases to exist as chaff...

[Scrawly]

How else is one to define "eternal life". Either one has existence or not!

Sure, the wicked and righteous both have everlasting existence.

The idea "life" connotes "conscious existence" whether it be pleasurable or not. However, the metaphor of the lake of fire connotes destruction eg: when the chaff is thrown into the flames it becomes dust = ceases to exist as chaff...

Well, as stated earlier the Bible teaches the wicked will undergo eternal destruction. Jesus also stated in Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So to recap:

1.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God

2.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Eternal destruction/punishment in hell
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Eternal blessedness in heaven

[apostoli]

Sure, the wicked and righteous both have everlasting existence.



Well, as stated earlier the Bible teaches the wicked will undergo eternal destruction. Jesus also stated in Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So to recap:

1.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God

2.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Eternal destruction/punishment in hell
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Eternal blessedness in heaven

There is a crimp in your speculations. Hell suffers the same fate as those thrown into the lake of fire. ie: Hell ceases to exist...

As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth...

[Scrawly]

There is a crimp in your speculations. Hell suffers the same fate as those thrown into the lake of fire. ie: Hell ceases to exist...

As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth...

I think we're done bro

[KingsGambit]

There is a crimp in your speculations. Hell suffers the same fate as those thrown into the lake of fire. ie: Hell ceases to exist...

As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth...

Actually, yes, hell is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14. So is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that death will eventually be destroyed so this indicates that the lake of fire is a symbol for destruction.

[Obsidian]

It says that the beast and the false prophet are still in the fire at the end of 1000 years, suggesting that they have not been annihilated. So I don't see why it would be a symbol for annihilation.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[KingsGambit]

E. Earle Ellis points out that if this symbolism was taken completely literally, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14 which states that the devil will be destroyed. Ezekiel 28:19 also states the same. The solution to this conundrum is 1) to take the literal verses above the symbolism 2) realize that "forever and ever" can also be translated "indefinitely" (as in Deuteronomy 15:17).

[Scrawly]

E. Earle Ellis points out that if this symbolism was taken completely literally, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14 which states that the devil will be destroyed. Ezekiel 28:19 also states the same. The solution to this conundrum is 1) to take the literal verses above the symbolism 2) realize that "forever and ever" can also be translated "indefinitely" (as in Deuteronomy 15:17).

The word group which includes "destroy" and its synonyms is used in a variety of ways, some of which do not require or even imply the cessation of existence. In other words, a careful examination of usage indicates that destruction can occur without extinction of being.

[Scrawly]

I also wonder about Mt. 18:8 which speaks of those who are thrown into the eternal fire. As Carson mentions in his book "the gagging of God", "one is surely entitled to ask why the fires should burn forever and the worms not die [cf. Mark 9:47-48] if their purpose comes to an end"