Born Again

[rhutchin]

We read the following:
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “...unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”…
8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “…you have seen me and still do not believe.
37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me…
39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me...

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,...
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.


From the above, we draw the following conclusions.
John 3
1. No one can enter heaven unless they are born again.
2. Being born again is a condition accomplished by the Spirit (of God).

John 6
1. Everyone whom God gives to Christ will come to Christ.
2. Christ will not lose anyone given to Him by God.
3. No one comes to Christ unless drawn by God.
4. Everyone taught by God comes to Christ.

At the minimum, these conclusions are true, but this does not mean that there are not other truths. This is only a starting point.

Questions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

For each answer, could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

[themuzicman]

1. Unclear.
2. After.
3. After.

[hereoisreal]

We read the following:
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “...unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”…
8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “…you have seen me and still do not believe.
37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me…
39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me...

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,...
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.


From the above, we draw the following conclusions.
John 3
1. No one can enter heaven unless they are born again.
2. Being born again is a condition accomplished by the Spirit (of God).

John 6
1. Everyone whom God gives to Christ will come to Christ.
2. Christ will not lose anyone given to Him by God.
3. No one comes to Christ unless drawn by God.
4. Everyone taught by God comes to Christ.

At the minimum, these conclusions are true, but this does not mean that there are not other truths. This is only a starting point.

Questions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

For each answer, could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are
the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts
. Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open
your graves, and cause you to come up out of
your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD,
when I have opened your graves, O my
people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know
that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land.
Step #8 Then they'll know God said it and did it.

[GoBahnsen]

We read the following:
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “...unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”…
8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “…you have seen me and still do not believe.
37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me…
39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me...

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,...
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.


From the above, we draw the following conclusions.
John 3
1. No one can enter heaven unless they are born again.
2. Being born again is a condition accomplished by the Spirit (of God).

John 6
1. Everyone whom God gives to Christ will come to Christ.
2. Christ will not lose anyone given to Him by God.
3. No one comes to Christ unless drawn by God.
4. Everyone taught by God comes to Christ.

At the minimum, these conclusions are true, but this does not mean that there are not other truths. This is only a starting point.

Questions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

For each answer, could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

1. I Believe it is a simultaneous action. One would not technically be born again and be in unbelief at the same time. So the Gospel must be present and The Spirit brings new life through the hearing of that message to those He was sent to apply the message to.

2.Hard to say. When were the disciples actually "born again"? When Jesus said follow me and so they did? Or did they follow Him for period of time not yet embracing Him as Savior and Lord?

3.That's a little harder to say. I think lost "sheep" can be taught by God before they actually embrace that truth in saving faith as God gifts them with it.

[hereoisreal]

3.That's a little harder to say. I think lost "sheep" can be taught by God before they actually embrace that truth in saving faith as God gifts them with it.

Go, lost sheep are not dead sheep. They are lost sheep.

[rhutchin]

Eze 37:11-13

Eze 37:14 ...

The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land.
Step #8 Then they'll know God said it and did it.

That is good. Now, are you able to incorporate your steps into the verses I cited and answer the questions I raised?

[rhutchin]

[quote]rhutchinQuestions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

For each answer, could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Bahnsen1. I Believe it is a simultaneous action. One would not technically be born again and be in unbelief at the same time. So the Gospel must be present and The Spirit brings new life through the hearing of that message to those He was sent to apply the message to.

2.Hard to say. When were the disciples actually "born again"? When Jesus said follow me and so they did? Or did they follow Him for period of time not yet embracing Him as Savior and Lord?

3.That's a little harder to say. I think lost "sheep" can be taught by God before they actually embrace that truth in saving faith as God gifts them with it.

OK. You would distinguish between those whom God draws to Christ (the lost - everybody? or just those who will be saved?) and those whom God gives to Christ (the born-again or saved).

Also, are you saying that those who are taught by God and subsequently come to Christ would not be everybody but they would not necessarily be those who are saved but would eventually be saved (or maybe not?)?

[rhutchin]

GoBahnsen
3.That's a little harder to say. I think lost "sheep" can be taught by God before they actually embrace that truth in saving faith as God gifts them with it.

hereoisreal
Go, lost sheep are not dead sheep. They are lost sheep.

rhutchin
What is the difference between "lost sheep" and "dead sheep" from your perspective? Can you define how you are using the terms.

[OneFollowingHim]

Being taught by God means to hear and learn.

[Chappie]

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are
the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts
. Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open
your graves, and cause you to come up out of
your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD,
when I have opened your graves, O my
people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know
that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land.
Step #8 Then they'll know God said it and did it.

God does everything for man save force him to believe, and deny the opportunity to believe to others.

These are not new birth stepts.... If anything they are restoration stepts that provide the opportunity that can lead to new birth. Is being born again new birth, or is it being born again?

1. Bones do not resist.
2. Flesh cannot please God.
3. Graves are not accountable
4. Many of Israel crawl right back into those graves.
5. Because of Adam, that spirit is seperated from God.
6. Each shall live, still it is appointed to each to die...
7. Many leave the land that God placed them in...
8. They know what God did, and they know what they did.

God provides all, that includes the blessing and the curse. We are denied the blessing because "WE" embrace the curse. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. Not I will choose this day who will serve me. God said you do it, you choose.....

[Calvinist4Him]

Questions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Perhaps one size shoe doesn't fit all? Wouldn't you say that His spirit does convict the sinner before a person receives Christ? Wouldn't you say that some people resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit? I would say that God does convict sinners of sin before they come to Christ. I would say that some people do resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

1. the same time?
2. after
3. all depends on what you mean by taught by Him. The sinner must have some understanding of the gospel in order to respond to the gospel.

For each answer, could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Personal experience, reading the Bible, and good old fashioned common sense also known as logic.

[Chappie]

Questions:

At what point in the salvation process does God send His spirit to a person and cause that person to be born again?

Perhaps one size shoe doesn't fit all? Wouldn't you say that His spirit does convict the sinner before a person receives Christ? Wouldn't you say that some people resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit? I would say that God does convict sinners of sin before they come to Christ. I would say that some people do resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is indeed in the world and convicts the world of sin. But he does not indwell the unbeliever as he does the believer. After repentance leads to faith, through faith; the Spirit indwells the believer. Upon indwelling the person spiritual death ends: That person is no longer seperated from God, this is what is known as the born again experience. Regeneration begins, the person is then justified, (Declared to be right with God) sanctified, (Set aside to God) and then called by God to live holy.

Prior to repentance that leads to faith, The Holy Spirit works on a person. After faith The Holy Spirit indwells a person and instead of working on that person he works in that person; and he also seals that person until the day of redemption

Does God make a person born again--
1. Before or after He gives them to Christ?
2. Before or after He draws them to Christ?
3. Before or after they are taught by Him?

1. A person is born again when they are indwelt with The Holy Spirit. Just think about it. Spititual death. Spiritual seperation from God. Born again. Again indwelt or reunited with God by his spirit... There is no such thing as being born again while one is a non believer...

2. After he draws them. The holy spirit in the world convicting the world of sin..

3. Before, we are taught of him. After we are taught by him.

[Calvinist4Him]

The Holy Spirit is indeed in the world and convicts the world of sin. But he does not indwell the unbeliever as he does the believer.

I believe your reading something into my post which isn't there, I never said the Holy Spirit indwells in an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit contends with sinners. God the Holy Spirit convinced me that I am a sinner, and that I needed a Savior to save me from myself.

After repentance leads to faith, through faith; the Spirit indwells the believer.

I believe you have it wrong, without faith in Christ, why would anybody repent? Who is the person without faith in Christ to repent to? I agree with the last part of your statement, the Holy Spirit of God indwells the believer.

Upon indwelling the person spiritual death ends: That person is no longer seperated from God, this is what is known as the born again experience.

well said.

Regeneration begins, the person is then justified, (Declared to be right with God) sanctified, (Set aside to God) and then called by God to live holy.

In accordance with the Scriptures...I believe in justification by faith in Christ alone, and without faith in Christ, there is no repentance to Christ. This may not be the best way to say it, but I believe repentance is the result of faith. Regeneration is soley the work of God the Holy Spirit in a believer. I know the difference between non-regeneration and regeneration because I have experienced the wonderful beautiful work of God in my life. God the Holy Spirit creates in the believer a new heart and a new mind with new desires for holiness.

Prior to repentance that leads to faith, The Holy Spirit works on a person. After faith The Holy Spirit indwells a person and instead of working on that person he works in that person; and he also seals that person until the day of redemption

You know by now I don't agree with the order you've stated and why. I like how you said; "The Holy Spirit indwells a person and instead of working on that person he works in that person" and I agree. I really couldn't tell you when God "seals" a person...I would like to think I'm sealed...I hope I'm sealed...but I don't know if I'm sealed in such a way that my name is written in stone in the "book of life". God probably has a good reason for not giving me information that specific.

1. A person is born again when they are indwelt with The Holy Spirit. Just think about it. Spititual death. Spiritual seperation from God. Born again. Again indwelt or reunited with God by his spirit... There is no such thing as being born again while one is a non believer...

Chappie, you don't have to keep on repeating yourself, I NEVER said that one could be born again as a non-believer, and I certainly did not make the implication. Are we clear?

2. After he draws them. The holy spirit in the world convicting the world of sin..

"...many are called, but few are chosen." The wedding invitations have been sent out...I wonder who will show?

3. Before, we are taught of him. After we are taught by him.

There are "levels" of being "taught" by God the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures these "levels" are "milk" and "meat". Apart from God and the Bible, what IS the basis of any knowledge?

I believe the convicting work of God the Holy Spirit within the will of the sinner, is based upon the state of the will of the sinner, God the Holy Spirit either blinds the sinner or opens their eyes based on the state of their will.

It would be fallacy to say that the unbeliver cannot understand anything from the Bible...or know anything about God. There is a difference between knowing and believing. Consider for a moment that there is a spark of light even in the darkest of men. It's the result of having knowledge of good and evil...which goes back to the "Garden of Eden".

[Chappie]

I believe your reading something into my post which isn't there, I never said the Holy Spirit indwells in an unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit contends with sinners. God the Holy Spirit convinced me that I am a sinner, and that I needed a Savior to save me from myself.

Nope, they were my thoughts...... Perhaps you inspired, but I was not contending with what you posted...

I believe you have it wrong, without faith in Christ, why would anybody repent?

Ouch!!! Hey, dat hurts!!! That's me you see getting banged around, it is the world doing the banging. I got tired of being abused by the world, so I ran. Guess where I ended up..... Naaah, don't guess; let me tell you. I ended up in Jesus' arms. Why did you repent. I know, you were just humming along without a problem or a care in the world, happy as a tic on a dog's back; and you just choose to repent. Most people repent seeking truth and a better way of living it to their benefit....

Who is the person without faith in Christ to repent to? I agree with the last part of your statement, the Holy Spirit of God indwells the believer.

People do not necessarily repent to, to repent is to turn from. Now if you turn from the world, where do you think that you will end up... The options in this world are good and evil. If you turn from one, you turn to the other.

In accordance with the Scriptures...I believe in justification by faith in Christ alone, and without faith in Christ, there is no repentance to Christ. This may not be the best way to say it, but I believe repentance is the result of faith.

Naaah, repentnce is the result of being abused by this world. Repentance is the result of knowing that you are going to die, and knowing that you will face either one of two realities. One hot and painful, the other peaceful, plesant and cool. You do not start out trying to do God a favor, it is our own butts that we are concerned with. That's why works do not merit salvation, ours are inheriently selfish outside of Christ...

There is no repentance "to" Christ. Repentance is to turn from. Can you not see that you are using the word upside down, backwards and out of whack...

Regeneration is soley the work of God the Holy Spirit in a believer. I know the difference between non-regeneration and regeneration because I have experienced the wonderful beautiful work of God in my life. God the Holy Spirit creates in the believer a new heart and a new mind with new desires for holiness.

That he does in the believer. Before faith he did not craate anything new in you. Repentance "ends" our boogie woogie with the world, faith "begins" our boogie woogie with Christ. You cannot boogie woogie with two masters. You will poop out boogie woogieing with one and therefore be too pooped to boogie woogie with the other. A house divided cannot stand...

You know by now I don't agree with the order you've stated and why.

That's OK....

I like how you said; "The Holy Spirit indwells a person and instead of working on that person he works in that person" and I agree.

That's great!!!!!

I really couldn't tell you when God "seals" a person...I would like to think I'm sealed...I hope I'm sealed...but I don't know if I'm sealed in such a way that my name is written in stone in the "book of life". God probably has a good reason for not giving me information that specific.

If you belong to him, (sav"ed") he said that he would not loose one; save the son of perdition that the scripture be fulfilled.

Chappie, you don't have to keep on repeating yourself, I NEVER said that one could be born again as a non-believer, and I certainly did not make the implication. Are we clear?

I never said that you said anything, are we clear on that???

"...many are called, but few are chosen." The wedding invitations have been sent out...I wonder who will show?

Guess it's not for me to know either....

There are "levels" of being "taught" by God the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures these "levels" are "milk" and "meat". Apart from God and the Bible, what IS the basis of any knowledge?

I believe the convicting work of God the Holy Spirit within the will of the sinner, is based upon the state of the will of the sinner, God the Holy Spirit either blinds the sinner or opens their eyes based on the state of their will.

It would be fallacy to say that the unbeliver cannot understand anything from the Bible...or know anything about God. There is a difference between knowing and believing. Consider for a moment that there is a spark of light even in the darkest of men. It's the result of having knowledge of good and evil...which goes back to the "Garden of Eden".

Amen........ Let me say that again, AMEN!!!!!!

[rhutchin]

Being taught by God means to hear and learn.

Are you saying that being taught by God naturally leads to salvation so that those who are to be saved will be taught by God and those who are not to be saved will not be taught by God?