Killing the vampires: a parable

[AtheistArchon]

- Once upon a time, in an alternate dimension, the Earth suffered a great cataclysm; giant inter-dimensional rifts opened up all along the planet. Magical and mythological beings poured through these rifts, and humanity was driven back as the ultimate lifeform. They struggled against all sorts of monstrosities for their existence.

- Most of the cultural hotspots and larger cities fell into ruin, both from extra-dimensional attack and from human power struggles. Tribal units formed in the lesser populated areas away from the rifts, and there humanity regrouped, every faction forming their own ad-hoc governmental system as best they could. During this time, nearly all of the technological foundations they enjoyed collapsed... global communication was lost, oil foundaries were shut down, and there was little contact outside of short-wave radio (made all but useless due to the interference from the rifts) and personal messengers.

- For decades this situation endured. Eventually, humanity formed a stronghold in the old city of Chicago, and they restarted the engines of industry. A coalition of humanity, it was. This large governing faction had access to reasonably large power stores, technology, weapons and vehicles, and most importantly, they held one agenda above all: the extermination of all dimensional beings and a return of the planet to human supremacy. It was immensely popular but for a few outer regions and settlements who had actually come to a peaceful co-existence with the more passive of the DB's, for they were not actually all mindless monsters; some were intelligent, and mere victims of the rifts themselves, yanked from their homes and deposited in this foreign environment. This mattered little to the coalition. As an overall result, Chicago became a swarming ghetto, the neighborhoods forming around the central coalition complex in hopes of joining the ranks. Conditions worsened, filth and disease and poverty set in to a good extent, but at least it was a fortified bastion of humanity; no DB dared to come within a hundred miles.

- And so it was when a group of coalition explorers in what was once New Mexico set off to cross the Rio Grande and try to make contact with the people of Old Mexico. What they found was a dozen or more cities absolutely thriving and successful. The people seemed to have little hostile DB problems at all, even though they had no weapons to speak of... sticks and swords at best. They farmed the land, had plenty to eat, and though they weren't at all close to any kind of pre-rifts technological culture, they seemed to be mini-paradises.

- How could this be? Several rifts nexi lay just miles from large, unarmed populations. How did they govern themselves? Who protected them and ensured their prosperity? The answer was, to the coalition, chilling: vampires ruled Mexico. In each city, a cabal of several vampire families reigned over the people. They were fed upon, naturally, and made to do their bidding. As such, the vampires protected the 'herd' from even the largest dimensional beings coming through the rifts, and made sure everyone had enough to eat and thrive.

- Naturally, the response from the coalition was to leap to the rescue! These poor humans were at the mercy of the vampires... dimensional beings themselves who had simply set up shop. But the first regiment of coalition troops to arrive found themselves beset by not only the vampire clans, but by the townspeople as well! The armor-clad people from the north were, after all, trying to take away what had been their lifeblood (so to speak) for generations... the vampires ensured their safety and provided strong governmental policy; they kept the rule of law, even if the punishments were somewhat severe, and the coalition was invading what was essentially a peaceful nation of people.

- So here is the dilemma. We know the vampires are evil at their core and that the people are basically being treated as cattle. They however are ignorant of this, and see their vampires as a legitimate government; their superiors... and they spurn any attempt by the coalition to interfere. After all, look at the shambles they've made of society elsewhere. Would you invade and kill the vapires? Or would you let the situation in Mexico alone?

- Back in our reality, we have a group of people who believe that certain things like vaccinations are against the will of god, and that secular freedom is an abomination. Blemmonds said in another thread that he believes public schools teach atheism and "homosexual rights". The fact that this is false isn't the issue, the issue is: should we let Blem keep a compound of religious theocracy, apart from the rest of the world community, if he truly is happy doing so?

- Note that this particular question is relatively easy IMHO, because it doesn't illustrate our current real-world problem. In the real world, the compound-people don't want a seperate society, they want the rest of the world to become their society. That's the difference between the vampires and the coalition: the vampires are content to stay in Mexico... the coalition forces its will upon whomever it can via force.

(Disclaimer: I didn't make up this story, it's part of a background to an RPG called, coincidentally enough, Rifts.)

[c968]

What if the coalition from Chicago went to Mexico with a serum that would change the vampires into non-vampires? (Although it may take a bit to unlearn some old behavior patterns). What if many Chicagoans were killed making the serum voluntary available to willing vampires? What if large powerful groups of dimensional beings subjugated people who wanted to help the coalition bring serum to the vamps, and carried away or killed those who had copies of the serum formula?

Not to avoid your question, just thought it might be fun to add some more questions.

[AtheistArchon]

Not to avoid your question

-

[Ryokan]

As the coalition, I guess you crush the vampires.
I don't think that an idyllic slavery is better than freedom, depending of course on the coalitions government. After we rescued the vampire cultists, and tried to rededucate them, I guess the move is to figure out why there society worked so well and ours sucked, and try to fix it. Changing our society is a option that nonvampire slaves have.

As a real world person, no, blemonds shouldn't be allowed to pull away from society. If he wants to, society, which he is in a social contract with, should be able to strip him of all of the property he has acquired while under its protection, and dump him. He can start a compound naked and alone on non US soil.

[Solly]

Just assuming this is a real world situation, then what would the short term "liberation" of the mexicans mean in light of the fact that the vampires would not be there to keep rift beasts at bay?

"Hey guys, we liberated you from your comfortable slavery, no come and join us in our squalid freedom and live in uncertain rather than known fear."

And that bit about the vampires being evil at their core, i don't think adds up if they can create conditions that humans are happy with. Absolute evil is very hard to come by; evil creates places like Auschwitz, Rwanda, Iraq and Cambodia

Anyway, i could name a government near you that is bleeding you like a vampire, for your own good. the names at the top may change, but the tax system doesn't.

[Cowthulu]

Hehe, I was chuckling pretty good. I am thinking, "I have read this before in an RPG guide." I was glad to see Rifts get credit at the end.

Fun game btw.

[Ryokan]

Just assuming this is a real world situation, then what would the short term "liberation" of the mexicans mean in light of the fact that the vampires would not be there to keep rift beasts at bay?

Maybe. We must have a method for fighting rift beasts as well, or we would have fallen though.

"Hey guys, we liberated you from your comfortable slavery, no come and join us in our squalid freedom and live in uncertain rather than known fear."

But we'd give them hope. Comfort without hope is no comfort at all.

And that bit about the vampires being evil at their core, i don't think adds up if they can create conditions that humans are happy with. Absolute evil is very hard to come by; evil creates places like Auschwitz, Rwanda, Iraq and Cambodia

Treating humans like cattle. That was Auschwitz. The fact the the vampires are organic farmers and the Nazi were factory farmers doesn't change the crime.

Anyway, i could name a government near you that is bleeding you like a vampire, for your own good. the names at the top may change, but the tax system doesn't.

But if I am pissed off enough, I can change the system. The vamps just suck my blood out if I protest.

[Solly]

Maybe. We must have a method for fighting rift beasts as well, or we would have fallen though.

But AA already specified that it was Fortress chicago, and a squalid place to live - no change there, eh?

But we'd give them hope. Comfort without hope is no comfort at all.

Who is the Christian around here? What hope, in those specific circumstances?

Treating humans like cattle. That was Auschwitz. The fact the the vampires are organic farmers and the Nazi were factory farmers doesn't change the crime.

But for a "crime" you need a standard, and those people voluntarily entered into their situation, it seems. a deal was struck. It's their chosen form of government (I always wonder if the US will sit by as Iraq gets an Islamic government, rather than a liberal democracy).

But if I am pissed off enough, I can change the system. The vamps just suck my blood out if I protest.

You can't change anything, they won't let you. Remember Ralph Nader? Martin Luther King? Malcolm X? Remember all the bellyaching about the Christian Right wanting to "change" things?

[Ryokan]

But AA already specified that it was Fortress chicago, and a squalid place to live - no change there, eh?

Herm. That is a good question. Something to be worked out pre invasion, but probably not insurmountabble. It was the vamps organizational abilities, not powers that fended of the rift beasts.

Who is the Christian around here? What hope, in those specific circumstances?

That they can have a safe free life without making blood sacrifices to vampires. Hope of gaining a degree of control over there lives.

But for a "crime" you need a standard, and those people voluntarily entered into their situation, it seems. a deal was struck. It's their chosen form of government (I always wonder if the US will sit by as Iraq gets an Islamic government, rather than a liberal democracy).

No deal was really struck though. Your born a vampire slave. You grow up a vampire slave. You know nothing but slavery, and are brainwashed into thinking its good. And I doubt the vamps started out as peaceful rulers. And if we let the Iraqis do that, we should come home now.

You can't change anything, they won't let you. Remember Ralph Nader? Martin Luther King? Malcolm X? Remember all the bellyaching about the Christian Right wanting to "change" things?

Nader changed seat belt laws, helped start customer service focused business, and keeps the dems focus on the left every election. MLK succeeded in getting civil rights acts through and ending segregation. Malcolm X helped him. And the Christian right is about to get Howard Stern off the air, so what is your point?

[Solly]

Herm. That is a good question. Something to be worked out pre invasion, but probably not insurmountabble. It was the vamps organizational abilities, not powers that fended of the rift beasts.

That they can have a safe free life without making blood sacrifices to vampires. Hope of gaining a degree of control over there lives.

What they found was a dozen or more cities absolutely thriving and successful.
The people seemed to have little hostile DB problems at all, even though they had no weapons to speak of... sticks and swords at best.
They farmed the land, had plenty to eat, and though they weren't at all close to any kind of pre-rifts technological culture, they seemed to be mini-paradises.

vampires ruled Mexico. In each city, a cabal of several vampire families reigned over the people. They were fed upon, naturally, and made to do their bidding.
As such, the vampires protected the 'herd' from even the largest dimensional beings coming through the rifts, and made sure everyone had enough to eat and thrive.
the vampires ensured their safety and provided strong governmental policy; they kept the rule of law, even if the punishments were somewhat severe, and the coalition was invading what was essentially a peaceful nation of people.
We know the vampires are evil at their core and that the people are basically being treated as cattle. They however are ignorant of this, and see their vampires as a legitimate government; their superiors... and they spurn any attempt by the coalition to interfere. After all, look at the shambles they've made of society elsewhere

Let's get clear, in this apocalyptic future, where society has broken down, here is a surviving community that has found a way to come to terms with their situation;

No deal was really struck though. Your born a vampire slave. You grow up a vampire slave. You know nothing but slavery, and are brainwashed into thinking its good. And I doubt the vamps started out as peaceful rulers.

Au contraire, their fathers entered into a contract - they could have fought to the death, instead they didn't; they chose any sort of survival to probable elimination and full slavery. Humanity as it exists elsewhere is living like rats in a sewer - and why should humanity have a better claim on survival than the rift beasts? the situation is not wholly comparable to contemporary regimes because the Vamps actually take care of their "cattle" - not wholly evil either you see.

Nader changed seat belt laws, helped start customer service focused business, and keeps the dems focus on the left every election. MLK succeeded in getting civil rights acts through and ending segregation. Malcolm X helped him. And the Christian right is about to get Howard Stern off the air, so what is your point?

But the system remains the same, the structures of the society remain the same.