Mashiach and Redemption

[Mevaser (Karl)]

Mashiach and Redemption / משיח וגאולה

According to the Jewish Scriptures the beginning of the Redemption had already begun from the day Adam and Hava (Eve) committed the first sin in this world. From that day on, the world has been in the preparatory stage for the beginning of the final Redemption. The beginnings of the geula (redemption) starts with the proclamation of G-d’s plan for Mashiach in this world (see Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] 3:15). According to Jewish tradition He is to come in two different stages, these are: Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David, thus two types of Geula. This is to be understood as: Mashiach ben Yosef who will conquer the Esav force (the sin that separates us from G-d), as Yosef stood above negative physical desire (Remember also that Yosef started the beginning of such redemption at that time). But at the end Mashiach ben Yosef must sacrifice His life for the struggle, so that the final redemption will come through Emunah / belief in His work (See Yeshayahu 53).
משיח בן יוסף - Mashiach Ben Yosef: The forerunner and harbinger of the final deliverer, the Messiah from the house of David, this is Mashiach ben David. Belief in the appearance of the Mashiach ben Yosef is derived from Scripture and tradition, just as Mashiach ben David, who is descended from Judah (Melech HaMashiach).

משיח בן דוד - Mashiach Ben David: As for the second Geula, the Gaon of Vilna (1720-1797), along with other Jewish Teachers of the Bible, asserted that there will be great wars on both in the physical and metaphysical planes between the Jewish People and other nations, as well as internally between Israel and its inhabitants who are part of the Erev Rav (the "Mixed multitude"). Therefore Mashiach ben David, connected with the quality of Malchut (Royalty), will bring the final redemption, conquering the Lavan force (the Lavan force is that that tries to restrain the Kingdom of G-d, according to the Hagaddah, “Lavan wanted to uproot everything,” because he wanted to strike out at the mind, the seat of the soul). At the end Mashiach Ben David is less of a question, because He is the hero’s hero. Everyone can, and has conceived of Him.

At the end Mashiach ben Yosef is the one who prepares the world for the physical culmination of the Redemption (by Emunah in Mashiach), the Kingdom of G-d on earth. "Yosef recognized his brothers, but they did not recognize him -- This is one of the traits of Yosef not only in his own generation, but in every generation, i.e., that Mashiach ben Yosef recognizes his brothers, but they do not recognize him. This is the work of Satan, who hides the characteristics of Mashiach ben Yosef so that the footsteps of the Mashiach are not recognized and are even belittled because of our many sins. Otherwise, our troubles would already have ended. Were Israel to recognize Yosef, that is, the footsteps of ben Yosef the Mashiach which is the ingathering of the exiles etc., then we would already have been redeemed with a complete redemption. (Kol Hator, Chapter 2, Aspect #39 by Rabbi Hillel Shklover)"

In Jewish Theology Yosef is associated with the aspect of God known as Yesod (Foundation), Yesod follows Malchut (Kingdom). Indeed Mashiach Ben Yosef is the foundation of such end of the Geula (Redemption), which will bring the final redeemer who came once as Mashiach Ben Yosef, but now as Mashiach Ben David. Yeshua Melech HaMashiach, the Pierced one as per Zechariah 12:10.

Would you have Emuna in Him? Do you want Mashiach Now?
Karl (Mevaser)
www.cmy.on.ca

[Menachem]

Mashiach and Redemption / משיח וגאולה

According to the Jewish Scriptures the beginning of the Redemption had already begun from the day Adam and Hava (Eve) committed the first sin in this world. From that day on, the world has been in the preparatory stage for the beginning of the final Redemption. The beginnings of the geula (redemption) starts with the proclamation of G-d’s plan for Mashiach in this world (see Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] 3:15). According to Jewish tradition He is to come in two different stages, these are: Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David, thus two types of Geula. This is to be understood as: Mashiach ben Yosef who will conquer the Esav force (the sin that separates us from G-d), as Yosef stood above negative physical desire (Remember also that Yosef started the beginning of such redemption at that time). But at the end Mashiach ben Yosef must sacrifice His life for the struggle, so that the final redemption will come through Emunah / belief in His work (See Yeshayahu 53).
משיח בן יוסף - Mashiach Ben Yosef: The forerunner and harbinger of the final deliverer, the Messiah from the house of David, this is Mashiach ben David. Belief in the appearance of the Mashiach ben Yosef is derived from Scripture and tradition, just as Mashiach ben David, who is descended from Judah (Melech HaMashiach).

משיח בן דוד - Mashiach Ben David: As for the second Geula, the Gaon of Vilna (1720-1797), along with other Jewish Teachers of the Bible, asserted that there will be great wars on both in the physical and metaphysical planes between the Jewish People and other nations, as well as internally between Israel and its inhabitants who are part of the Erev Rav (the "Mixed multitude"). Therefore Mashiach ben David, connected with the quality of Malchut (Royalty), will bring the final redemption, conquering the Lavan force (the Lavan force is that that tries to restrain the Kingdom of G-d, according to the Hagaddah, “Lavan wanted to uproot everything,” because he wanted to strike out at the mind, the seat of the soul). At the end Mashiach Ben David is less of a question, because He is the hero’s hero. Everyone can, and has conceived of Him.

At the end Mashiach ben Yosef is the one who prepares the world for the physical culmination of the Redemption (by Emunah in Mashiach), the Kingdom of G-d on earth. "Yosef recognized his brothers, but they did not recognize him -- This is one of the traits of Yosef not only in his own generation, but in every generation, i.e., that Mashiach ben Yosef recognizes his brothers, but they do not recognize him. This is the work of Satan, who hides the characteristics of Mashiach ben Yosef so that the footsteps of the Mashiach are not recognized and are even belittled because of our many sins. Otherwise, our troubles would already have ended. Were Israel to recognize Yosef, that is, the footsteps of ben Yosef the Mashiach which is the ingathering of the exiles etc., then we would already have been redeemed with a complete redemption. (Kol Hator, Chapter 2, Aspect #39 by Rabbi Hillel Shklover)"

In Jewish Theology Yosef is associated with the aspect of God known as Yesod (Foundation), Yesod follows Malchut (Kingdom). Indeed Mashiach Ben Yosef is the foundation of such end of the Geula (Redemption), which will bring the final redeemer who came once as Mashiach Ben Yosef, but now as Mashiach Ben David. Yeshua Melech HaMashiach, the Pierced one as per Zechariah 12:10.

Would you have Emuna in Him? Do you want Mashiach Now?
Karl (Mevaser)
www.cmy.on.ca

This man does not speak for Jewish tradition as it is plain to see he is of the "Messianic" persuasion.

Mashiakh ben Yosef according to the Talmud is the son of the patriarch Joseph of either the tribe of Ephraim or Mennaseh. According to the Talmud Mashikah ben Yosef will die in the final battle between good and evil he is not a sacrifice he will simply die in battle or sometime afterward. Mashiakh ben David who is the King messiah will come in after the death of Mashiakh ben Yosef and usher in an era of endless peace.

What Mevaser(Karl) is suggesting about the Paradigm discussed is not in Jewish scriptures. This is part of His views as a "messianic" and are not the View of Jews.

[Mevaser (Karl)]

Shalom Eli,

As it happens I'm writting from the Jewish perpective. But as we say: Anachnu Rotzim Mashiach Achshav (we want Mashiach Now) we never say Messiah's, only singular, so Mashiach ben Yosef, and David has to be ONE. Not two.

Mashiach has to be a decendant of David. No where in the bible says that Mashiach will be from Efraim.

As a matter of a fact, this is the view of even the Chabad movement, so they said that their Rebbe was from Yehuda, even though he suffered as Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 53! And remember that passage refers to Mashiach Ben Yosef!

Shalom Shalom

Plus who made you the Jewish authority in this matter.

[Menachem]

Shalom Eli,

As it happens I'm writting from the Jewish perpective. But as we say: Anachnu Rotzim Mashiach Achshav (we want Mashiach Now) we never say Messiah's, only singular, so Mashiach ben Yosef, and David has to be ONE. Not two.

Mashiach has to be a decendant of David. No where in the bible says that Mashiach will be from Efraim.

As a matter of a fact, this is the view of even the Chabad movement, so they said that their Rebbe was from Yehuda, even though he suffered as Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 53! And remember that passage refers to Mashiach Ben Yosef!

Shalom Shalom

Plus who made you the Jewish authority in this matter.

The writing in which you posted gives the impression of a messianic jew .
If you look at Sukkah 52a you will see the two messiah's Mashiakh ben Yosef and Mashiakh ben David are two separate people being identified. Saying that these two are the same person goes against what the Talmud says of the Two. Sukkah 52b goes on to further identify the two separately. Furthermore Rashi Identifies Mashiakh ben Yosef as the son of the Patriarch Yosef in the Talmud. The Talmud identifies the Two as separate.

As for me being the foremost authority on the matter I can say I am not. As for your view being that of the Jewish perspective I can say definately not. In your response you were Either 1. were not aware of the Talmudic references to messiah ben Yosef and messiah ben David 2. your are a Karaite Jew and do not accept the Talmud as scriptural or 3. you are a messianic jew and want to force fit jesus as the messiah ben yosef who is ultimately messiah ben David which is an incorrect assumption about the Two especially when read about in the Talmud.

I'll let you pick which one is the right one....

[Goose]

Plus who made you the Jewish authority in this matter.

I know this wasn't addressed towards me, but I need to say something. If Eli is a (Orthodox) Jew, then his authority comes straight from HaShem, which is continuous from the time of Moshe. Jews (and even geiriym like myself) have authority over goyim like youself, concerning HaShem's Torah. What you talk about is "Jewish", but not of an (Orthodox) Jew perspective, as continuous from Moshe. Anyone can talk and sound Jewish, but you can only be a Jew through (Orthodox) halachaic procedures, as continuous from Moshe. Christianity is not one of these procedures.

[Conductor42]

*Disagrees on "authority" issue*

[Menachem]

I guess that since mevaser(Karl) wont pick one of the numbers I am going to pick which one is the right one and that number is a Resounding 3 for being a messyantic who wants to try and force fit his christian jesus theology into Judaism.


P.S. The website and the wording of his post gave it away.

[Menachem]

*Disagrees on "authority" issue*

C'mon....... Yoshiah your ruining my moment of greatness......lol

[Conductor42]

LOL, I know... that why I kept it to a quiet objection :)

[Menachem]

I wonder why Mevaser(karl) hasn't returned?????.....LoL

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Uh...what Eli says.

I don't want to insult or offend anyone here (least of all Goose, who is courteous & a gentleman), but belief in Jesus/Ribi Yehoshua/Yeshua/Yahoshua/etc. as the Messiah, the "Son of God", an avatar of God Incarnate, a "person" within a triune God, etc. is totally, utterly, and completely incompatible with traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism, whether of the Rabbinic or Karaite variety. (Heck, even the Samaritans would agree with us on this one!) This circle can never be squared (although we do give Mevaser an A+ for effort & stick-to-itiveness). Extremist Chabad meshugas is hardly representative of the orthodox consensus.

Be well!

ssv

[Conductor42]

Agreed, SSV.

[Goose]

I wonder why Mevaser(karl) hasn't returned?????.....LoL

I've seen him spam other theology boards with the same exact post. I doubt he'll be back. (Which is fine by me)

[Menachem]

I'll have to agree with that StillSmallVoice all the way....

[Mevaser (Karl)]

Shalom every one

Goose I'm here to dash your hopes. I'm back...

I have been quite busy editing a book and a bunch of other things.

I'm Back!