Originally posted by rogue06
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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Early Image of Jesus Found in Egyptian Tomb
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd many of the early Church Fathers spoke negatively about making images of Jesus as well as the 4th century Synod of Elvira.
One of the earliest depictions that has survived and isn't from the Roman catacombs comes from what appears to have been the baptismal chamber of a house-church in Dura-Europos on the Euphrates River in modern Syria depicting the miraculous healing the paralytic at Capernaum by Jesus in the Gospels in (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26). It is dated at c.235 B.C.
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostIndeed rogue06. Did you also notice Christ is beardless in the Paralytic painting as well as the one I first posted about? I am not sure what it could mean.
I think the reason that some of these images depict him as beardless is that they have taken Christ out of his cultural context (a Palestinian Jew from around 30 A.D.).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI can't make out the details well enough to be sure that he is depicted as being beardless or if he has a short beard like that seen in the supposed reconstruction from the Shroud of Turin (which seems odd for him to have a beard since AFAICT they would have shaved the body before anointing Him).
I think the reason that some of these images depict him as beardless is that they have taken Christ out of his cultural context (a Palestinian Jew from around 30 A.D.).
Here is a closer look at the Paralytic painting:
1932.1202_ag-obj-34498-004-bar.jpg
Link: http://isaw.nyu.edu/exhibitions/edge...ling-paralyticLast edited by Jesse; 07-06-2014, 11:43 AM."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'd appreciate seeing evidence for this. Every single non-Protestant church tradition has icons, even those outside of the Roman Empire and which were separated from the Orthodox Church well before the iconoclast controversy.
I thought that was from the third century, but didn't feel I had a sufficient recollection of the details to bring it up.
The footnotes at the bottom mention some of the sources for this (#1 for Irenaeus, #2 for Eusebius, #6 for Eusebius and notes that Clement did approve of symbolic pictograms which I suppose would include things like the Ichthys).
As the one for Irenaeus of Lyon notes, he was mostly critical of how the Gnostics employed them and cites his On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis (popularly called Adversus haereses or Against Heresies) I.XXV.6 which criticized the followers of Carpocrates of Alexandria:
So perhaps it could be said that Irenaeus was more concerned with how the Gnostics used them than with the images themselves.
If so then it is sort of ironic that the apocryphal Acts of John, which many have viewed as a Gnostic work, was highly critical of the veneration of images calling it "childish."
In Eusebius' case, in 327 he received a letter from Emperor Constantine's sister, Constantia, asking him for a picture of Christ which he denied the request writing, "To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error."
Another example would be Epiphanius of Salamis, in Cyprus (IIRC regarded as a saint in Orthodox tradition) who told John, Bishop of Jerusalem in the last part of Letter 51
Interestingly, this letter attacks Origen and "the heresy of Origen" (whose works have fallen in and out of favor with Christians on a seemingly regular basis[1]), who had responded to the charge of "atheism" made by many Romans in his Contra Celsus Book VII Chapter 64 by acknowledging that Christians did not use images in worship, following the Second Commandment. One of the reasons that the Romans claimed that Christians were atheists was because they didn't have any images of any gods in their homes or churches and Celsus made this Christian rejection of all images a point of criticism, claiming that Greek philosophers understood that the images were not the gods themselves.
1. Currently the RCC views him as a Church Father, but not a Saint.Last edited by rogue06; 07-06-2014, 02:52 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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