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Early Image of Jesus Found in Egyptian Tomb

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    The latter is interesting for being beardless which definitely would not have been the norm.
    Indeed rogue06. Did you also notice Christ is beardless in the Paralytic painting as well as the one I first posted about? I am not sure what it could mean.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And many of the early Church Fathers spoke negatively about making images of Jesus as well as the 4th century Synod of Elvira.
      I'd appreciate seeing evidence for this. Every single non-Protestant church tradition has icons, even those outside of the Roman Empire and which were separated from the Orthodox Church well before the iconoclast controversy.
      One of the earliest depictions that has survived and isn't from the Roman catacombs comes from what appears to have been the baptismal chamber of a house-church in Dura-Europos on the Euphrates River in modern Syria depicting the miraculous healing the paralytic at Capernaum by Jesus in the Gospels in (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26). It is dated at c.235 B.C.

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]1002[/ATTACH]
      Christ is top center
      I thought that was from the third century, but didn't feel I had a sufficient recollection of the details to bring it up.
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Jesse View Post
        Indeed rogue06. Did you also notice Christ is beardless in the Paralytic painting as well as the one I first posted about? I am not sure what it could mean.
        I can't make out the details well enough to be sure that he is depicted as being beardless or if he has a short beard like that seen in the supposed reconstruction from the Shroud of Turin (which seems odd for him to have a beard since AFAICT they would have shaved the body before anointing Him).

        I think the reason that some of these images depict him as beardless is that they have taken Christ out of his cultural context (a Palestinian Jew from around 30 A.D.).

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        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I can't make out the details well enough to be sure that he is depicted as being beardless or if he has a short beard like that seen in the supposed reconstruction from the Shroud of Turin (which seems odd for him to have a beard since AFAICT they would have shaved the body before anointing Him).

          I think the reason that some of these images depict him as beardless is that they have taken Christ out of his cultural context (a Palestinian Jew from around 30 A.D.).
          That makes sense. I do wonder why they would take him out of his cultural context when some of these paintings (the ones around the 2nd century) where created early enough to know better? Especially something from the Syrian area for example.

          Here is a closer look at the Paralytic painting:

          1932.1202_ag-obj-34498-004-bar.jpg

          Link: http://isaw.nyu.edu/exhibitions/edge...ling-paralytic
          Last edited by Jesse; 07-06-2014, 11:43 AM.
          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I'd appreciate seeing evidence for this. Every single non-Protestant church tradition has icons, even those outside of the Roman Empire and which were separated from the Orthodox Church well before the iconoclast controversy.

            I thought that was from the third century, but didn't feel I had a sufficient recollection of the details to bring it up.
            At the risk of citing everyone's favorite source, Wikipedia...

            Source: Depiction of Jesus


            During the persecution of Christians under the Roman Empire, Christian art was necessarily furtive and ambiguous, and there was hostility to idols in a group still with a large component of members with Jewish origins, surrounded by, and polemicising against, sophisticated pagan images of gods. Irenaeus (d. c.202), Clement of Alexandria (d. 215), Lactantius (ca. 240 – ca. 320) and Eusebius of Caesarea (d. ca. 339) disapproved of portrayals in images of Jesus. The 36th canon of the Synod of Elvira in 306 A.D. reads, 'It has been decreed that no pictures be had in the churches, and that which is worshipped or adored be not painted on the walls', which has been interpreted by Calvin and other Protestants as an interdiction of the making of images of Christ. The issue remained the subject of controversy until the end of the 4th century.


            Source

            © Copyright Original Source



            The footnotes at the bottom mention some of the sources for this (#1 for Irenaeus, #2 for Eusebius, #6 for Eusebius and notes that Clement did approve of symbolic pictograms which I suppose would include things like the Ichthys).

            As the one for Irenaeus of Lyon notes, he was mostly critical of how the Gnostics employed them and cites his On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis (popularly called Adversus haereses or Against Heresies) I.XXV.6 which criticized the followers of Carpocrates of Alexandria:

            Source: Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 25): Doctrines of Carpocrates


            They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles.


            Source

            © Copyright Original Source



            So perhaps it could be said that Irenaeus was more concerned with how the Gnostics used them than with the images themselves.

            If so then it is sort of ironic that the apocryphal Acts of John, which many have viewed as a Gnostic work, was highly critical of the veneration of images calling it "childish."

            In Eusebius' case, in 327 he received a letter from Emperor Constantine's sister, Constantia, asking him for a picture of Christ which he denied the request writing, "To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error."

            Another example would be Epiphanius of Salamis, in Cyprus (IIRC regarded as a saint in Orthodox tradition) who told John, Bishop of Jerusalem in the last part of Letter 51

            Source: Letter 51


            I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person.

            Source

            © Copyright Original Source



            Interestingly, this letter attacks Origen and "the heresy of Origen" (whose works have fallen in and out of favor with Christians on a seemingly regular basis[1]), who had responded to the charge of "atheism" made by many Romans in his Contra Celsus Book VII Chapter 64 by acknowledging that Christians did not use images in worship, following the Second Commandment. One of the reasons that the Romans claimed that Christians were atheists was because they didn't have any images of any gods in their homes or churches and Celsus made this Christian rejection of all images a point of criticism, claiming that Greek philosophers understood that the images were not the gods themselves.





            1. Currently the RCC views him as a Church Father, but not a Saint.
            Last edited by rogue06; 07-06-2014, 02:52 PM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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