May 17th 2004, 10:15 PM #1
Is sin only sin if there's negative consequences?
Or another question is, is what is wrong for a Christian wrong for everybody else too? Right now I can think of a couple of examples:
For example, in an increasingly decadent Western World, fewer and fewer people see any reason to keep sexual relations within marriage. With abortion "rights," and contraception in vogue, people see no reason to stay abstinent since the consequences of a lascivious (?) lifestyle are easily averted.
The same can be said about homosexuality. I've refined my position on this several times, but I have no problem with people who are attracted to the same sex; my problem is with those who commit the actual act of homosexual relations. However, I cannot really justify this position on anything but a scriptural basis, and atheists who oppose gay marriage often fumble on their feet trying to explain why they don't support it. Before, it could be seen that restriction of unnatural relations was just a way of guarding against STD's; but now that "protection" is available, that is not a worry anymore.
Also, one can say that there are instances where lying is OK, or at least, not so bad. The Ninth Commandment is pretty specific about this--Thou shalt not bear false witness. By "witness," I assume the writer is speaking from an explicitly legal context and the severity of casual lying isn't really adressed. Also, there's Rahab--she lied for the sake of the Israelite spies and was spared, and was counted as a "hero of faith" in Hebrews.
What do you think?
(I am not to clear about the posting policy of this subforum, so if this can be moved elsewhere, please do!)
May 18th 2004, 10:55 AM #2Originally posted by Cephas
Essentially you say the argument, on the one side, is for a strict morality based upon the opinion that other sexual norms are sinful.
The other side essentally believes that contraception and safe sex legitimizes the lascivious lifestyle.
But, is that the issue, "getting away with it personally?"
How do the Sexual Mores we decide to set affect our society?
"in an increasingly decadent Western World, fewer and fewer people see any reason to keep sexual relations within marriage"...
So, are there reasons?
That question was answered by the social experiment of Constantine when he instituted Universal Roman Catholicism. Basically, the wide open sexually free license was brought to a halt ove the century which followed. Rome fell, as had all the previous hedonistic empires.
For the first time, it was mandatory to reform of the sexual mores in Western Society. The results were that (1000) one thousand years of continuous government followed, the age was so non-eventful such as to be historically dark.
In 1492AD, the paganistic lascivious lifestyles were allowed to return in what is recognized as the Renaissance. Wars between nations returned as ten nationsl entities emerged one after the fall of the last in a punctuation of rise and fall of systems which are founded upon adolescent developmental progams envouraging sexual freedom and irresponsibilty.
The big question is how do the other six social groups in society benefit in supporting the self serving promiscuity of the Adolescent Social Membership?
Abortion discriminates against those members of society yet unborn while their mothers are
"with child." The young mothers who we teach to get pregnant lose their child, a tragedy realized long afterwards.
STD cost money and ruins many lives, including the parents and siblings of those affected, with say, AIDS. Young Adults are indoctrinated in unhealthy behaviors.
Taxes from Middle Aged members of the society are raised for dependent mothers, child care, welfare, child health care services, welfare bureacracy, ....
Parents tolerate, in fear, a Sex, Drugs, and Rock'n Roll adolescence until these young people reach age 30, today.
Why do we insist that our social educational program, our collective effort to raise the next generation, encourage such irresponsibilty in these afolescents? Ehat are we getting out of this but 1,500,000 abortions\every year, 60% divorce thereafter, AIDS, bad international reputations, and heart break for young gitls, sexual exploitation of young girls, misdirection of the energies of young men, learned irresponsibilities, and if thevrapmculture means it, crime and degregation of women.
What do we "buy" for all this adolescent "fun?" If would be a SIN to get nothing but social psin, wouldn'tbit?
May 18th 2004, 10:57 AM #3
Emnity with God isn't bad enough?"... engage your brain before you engage your weapon." - Gen. James Mattis, USMC
I don't care how systematic your theology is until you show me how biblical it is.
May 18th 2004, 11:36 AM #4Originally posted by themuzicman
It ought be enough for the real Christians, but look at Kerry. And, Kerry has Catholic defenders saying that the issue concerns the matter of life, when is a fetus a human child?
Matt. 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child,... (the Eric Ericson Human Stage of Trust)...
May 18th 2004, 01:24 PM #5Originally posted by kofh2u
To compare ourself to the behaivor other we will always be better than some and worse than other - but overall be doing things wrong.
May 18th 2004, 01:49 PM #6Originally posted by themuzicman
I think the problem is thinking too much in terms of purely utilitarian morality, and not even are very well-developed form of utilitarianism at that. If the only questions we ask in morality are "What will produce the most short-term happiness for me?," and "How far can I go without suffering any negative consequences?," then our morality is somewhat flawed.
We must not forget that there are other views of morality that are compatible with absolute moral commands, such as deontology and divine command ethics. The latter of these does provide a basis for prohibitions against things like adultery, homosexuality, abortion, etc. If God, the all-knowing and wholly good creator of the universe tells us that something is wrong, shouldn't that be a good enough reason for thinking that it is wrong in an absolute sense? Perhaps there are long-term consequences to such acts that we cannot see. The important thing to recognize is that the claim that something is wrong because God says so is not necessarily circular or indefensible."I understand by the scholar no mere pedant, dilettante, literary epicure or dandy; but a serious, full-grown man; who feels that life is a serious affair, and that he has a part to act in its eventful drama; and must therefore do his best to act well his part, so as to leave behind him, in the good he has done, a grateful remembrance of his having been" (Orestes Brownson).
May 18th 2004, 08:33 PM #7
Perhaps the problem is that even though Christians are called to live as distinct from the rest of the world, they still have to live among the world. And how can we properly evangelize if our ways of life seem far too esoterical to others? Some view the Scriptural Doctrines as contradictory, irrelevant, and/or irrational. "We're living in progressing times," some may say. "Your way of life, all though well-meaning, is outmoded, and we have now come to understand things better than people of Biblical times did; we're no longer ruled by superstition."
And so, some Christians, fearing being branded as "intolerant," "unrealistic," or even "crazy," meekly accept social mores against their better judgement.
Truth be told, I'm not so much a Christian as I am Deist--I only adhere to Christian doctrines because I've learned them since childhood and I found that, properly practiced, they bring positive results. Also, something deep within myself hesitates to "be freed from the fetters of religion." I'm not sure whether this is what they call the Holy Spirit, or just my own mind. I'm trying to find the irrefutable Truth.
This question of mine is one of the many problems I've been trying to resolve ever since I stopped going to a Christian school, and started attending a very secular universtiy. How can I make sense of these forbidden sins if people don't see how they're wrong?
If it's any credit to the claims of Christ as Divine, it's that someone like me hasn't abandoned the faith yet. Yet perhaps an atheist would say that I am still being weaned off of the vestigial concept of the existence of a higher power and afterlife.
If I have violated the Q&A format, please don't close this thread--just move it to a more appropriate location.
May 18th 2004, 09:14 PM #8
Ok, quick, Biblical answer to "Is sin only sin if there's negative conesquennces?"
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. James 4:17
Ya, I think that sums it up...
Commander Tomalak: You will not survive our attack.
Captain Picard: You will not survive ours. Shall we die together?
May 18th 2004, 10:44 PM #9Originally posted by Cephas
IMO this is the greatest challenge Christians face. We must know the precepts of God so well we can apply them in all situation, while at the same time being salt and light to a very dark world AND still be able to effectifly have a relationship with non-believers.
If we just stand on a street corner and pound on the bible - it's just noise to non-believers. We must have a rlationship and show them Christ's love for them through us.
We fail in this endeavor time and time again. We think the it is only the words of God that will change the heats of people - and it can.
But as we read of the many testimonies of those that have converted it is a common theme - when I was in need you........ And if we're doing it right the 'you' that fulfilled their need is Jesus Christ - If we do it wrong the 'you' ends up really being us. The only one that can truely make a lasting and permanent change is the Author of life - the Creator of all - God Almight, who was made know to us in his son Jesus Christ.
So the point? Learn God precepts, live Gods precepts and explain Gods precepts whenever He gives you an opportunity.
And when sin occurs in our life - repent and ask forgiveness.
May 19th 2004, 01:32 AM #10
Yes, we may be thevexample neededOriginally posted by ajohnson
Yrs, like the church of Smyrna, we may well be called to risk martyrdom in the Middle East, loving our Islamic enemy by visiting in tourism of the Holy Lands. Thr Palestinians would benefit from the commerce in their part of that land.
A massive on going fearless pilgrimage by the Christians could be the "goid cop" to the "bad cop" enforcement of law and order.
Tourism has picked up a little in Israel ths year. I think thr=e churches eojld see a revival, thr christian membershio a victory in peace, and Christianity the spirit of Christ returned to his own Promised Land... prophecy fulfilled and Jews converted...
Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as
the doves of peace to their (cathedral) windows?
Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish, (first from North America), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, (Christ), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).
May 19th 2004, 07:30 AM #11
Originally posted by kofh2u
May 19th 2004, 11:39 AM #12
Are we sittin' waitin' for our reward?Originally posted by ajohnson
And let him that heareth say, Come, (to others, in tour groups).
And let him that is athirst (for peace and good will on earth) come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life (Charity), freely, (without Christian conversion).
I am impressed that you are so easily convinced by just tge few short verses!
Most Christians feel self satisfied, waiting. They are sitting around, arguing convenient and ancient theology which has them "saved," either because they hit the lottery and have become "the elect," or through grace wit out works, just talk.
My father on earth said the boss down here would probably fired tgem. And, the mormons invented a great idea to gather millions of members, ie; eve yone goes to heaven...
The Church claims to be the Bride, the Holy Spirit filled third part of the Trinity... so I can see what Isaiah was telling us, and... if you can to, then the first 144,000 tourists-martyrs to PLO Bethlehem seems like prescription for peace in God's Most Holy Place... Jerusalem.
Isaiah 60 and 61 and 62 join with Zechariah 13 and 14 to support the Prince of Peace in ending this terrorism and disgrace in the Promised Land, true?
"Come says the spirit to the bride"...
Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religion) which came against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (the Lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts, (the host of unceasing tourism), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries as if Sukkots).
Zech. 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the
families of the earth unto (the New) Jerusalem to worship the King, (the Lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts,(of miriad Christians), even upon them shall be no rain (to increase the numbers of congegation of their denomination).
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