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Thread: Old Testament Laws and Modern Christianity

  1. #21
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
    The Old Covenant was not the law of Christ, but the law of Moses - as is attested in the Bible itself. When Paul declares that we are free from the law - as this citation shows - he is saying that we are free of the Law of Moses. The Christian is under the law to Christ, who also said "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Not the ten commandments, Christ's commandments. And yes, Christ was as much involved in producing the commandments of the Old - obsolete - Covenant as he was in producing the New Covenant.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  2. #22
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foudroyant
    In your citation do you mean Paul?
    No

    Matthew 22
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


    Where is it spelled out what are the so-called non-ceremonial laws and ceremonial laws?
    Jesus touches on the difference many times, when he gets asked about the sabbath and when he talks about sacrifices, unclean foods, etc. Paul describes the obsolete laws as washings and carnal ordinances.

    Hebrews 9
    10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

  3. #23
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
    Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
    What might carnal ordinances signify? Could it be rigid definitions perhaps? The carnal ordinance against adultery is simply to avoid sexual relations with another .... what is the spiritual ordinance?
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  4. #24
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    The law against adultery did not end at the time of reformation. And the spiritual adultery which you cite was discussed by Jesus (and also the Tenth Commandment from Mount Sinai) during even the old covenant. So no, I do not think it refers to rigid definitions. There were never supposed to be any rigid definitions. Carnal ordinances refers to the other things that expired other than meats and washings — namely, the animal sacrifices and holy days.

  5. #25
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    The law against adultery did not end at the time of reformation.
    I see no reason to believe that the old covenant was only rendered obsolete in part. Which is not to say that such things as adultery are condoned in the new covenant, but that the Old Covenant does not apply. The New Covenant has its own - independent - prohibition of such things as adultery.

    Australian and American laws both derive from British law. Try driving on the right in Australia or on the left in America. The laws of one country do not prevail in the other. Both prohibit theft, but no charge of theft can be brought to trial in Australia under the American statutes, and vice versa.
    The analogy is clear enough.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-08-2014 at 11:39 PM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    No

    Matthew 22
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.




    Jesus touches on the difference many times, when he gets asked about the sabbath and when he talks about sacrifices, unclean foods, etc. Paul describes the obsolete laws as washings and carnal ordinances.

    Hebrews 9
    10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    In Post #2 I cited Hebrews 8:13 which cancels out the entire (not just parts) Old Covenant.

  7. #27
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    On the matter of Hebrews 8:13, Foudroyant is entirely correct.
    Hebrews 9:10 quite clearly states that the Old Law is only a matter of of fleshly ordinances, and was imposed until the time of restoration.
    The Old Law's limitations are defined. It was confined to matters of the flesh, and (9:8) the way to the holy of holies was not made manifest while the first tabernacle stood . Christ has brought, however, (9:11) the more perfect tabernacle.
    The context of this passage does not deal with which laws apply, but with the obsolescence of the Old Covenant, and its replacement with the new.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  8. #28
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Foudroyant, I think the best way of looking at it is that yes, the entire covenant was repealed. That would include the moral laws. But even assuming that it was all repealed, the New Testament reinstitutes the entirety of the moral law. Furthermore, in a sense, the moral laws were a component of the mosaic code that predated the mosaic code. When Hebrews 8 is talking about doing away with the covenant, it specifically mentions that a new covenant appears in its place. And the new covenant includes "laws." The main distinction that Paul makes between the old and new covenants (including in chapter 8) is that the old covenant had animal sacrifices, whereas the new covenant had a single human sacrifice.

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabibito
    The New Covenant has its own - independent - prohibition of such things as adultery.
    How is the new prohibition "independent" of the old, if the new prohibition specifically references the old?

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    Hebrews 9:4 teaches that the "tables of the covenant" are included in the Old Covenant that was abrogated (cf. Hebrews 8:13).

    The tables of the covenant were the Decalogue (Exodus 24:16).

    Keil & Delitzsch: Into this ark Moses was to put “the testimony” (העדת; cf. Exodus 40:20). This is the name given to the two tables of stone, upon which the ten words spoken by God to the whole nation were written, and which Moses was to receive from God (Exodus 24:12). Because these ten words were the declaration of God upon the basis of which the covenant was concluded (Exodus 34:27-28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:1-2), these tables were called the tables of testimony (ch. Exodus 31:18; Exodus 34:29), or tables of the covenant (Deuteronomy 9:9; Deuteronomy 11:15).
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=1&ch=25

    Circumcision also pre-dated the Mosaic code (cf. Genesis 17) but it too has been abrogated.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 07-09-2014 at 05:30 PM.

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