Originally posted by foudroyant
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Christianity 201 Guidelines
orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Old Testament Laws and Modern Christianity
Collapse
X
-
The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
-
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant (Hebrews 9:4, NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...4&version=NASB
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant (Hebrews 9:4, KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A4&version=KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostFoudroyant, I think the best way of looking at it is that yes, the entire covenant was repealed. That would include the moral laws. But even assuming that it was all repealed, the New Testament reinstitutes the entirety of the moral law. Furthermore, in a sense, the moral laws were a component of the mosaic code that predated the mosaic code. When Hebrews 8 is talking about doing away with the covenant, it specifically mentions that a new covenant appears in its place. And the new covenant includes "laws." The main distinction that Paul makes between the old and new covenants (including in chapter 8) is that the old covenant had animal sacrifices, whereas the new covenant had a single human sacrifice.
1. Is the command to obey the 7th day of rest (Sabbath) a moral law? Please provide proof for your answer.
2. You mentioned about animal sacrifices in your discussion of Hebrews 8 but the entire Decalogue was said to be abrogated as well.
Comment
-
1. No. Hebrews specifically says that the sabbath was a prophetic ritual.
2. I said that the entire decalogue was abrogated, but that all the non-ceremonial parts were then reaffirmed.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostHow is the new prohibition "independent" of the old, if the new prohibition specifically references the old?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
If the Old Testament law is still important, why don't most Christians spend much time reading books like Leviticus or Deuteronomy?Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
Comment
-
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
No they're not. Jesus didn't teach anything other than the law of Moses, except with slightly different emphases. The reason Christians don't study Leviticus and Deuteronomy is because they are ignorant and faithless. Most Christians don't spend much time on the Bible in general, new testament or old. The new testament says that all scripture is useful.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostNo they're not. Jesus didn't teach anything other than the law of Moses, except with slightly different emphases...
ps: Moses' Lore spoke of Jesus' preexistence (cp. John 8:40 & Gen 18) but his Law did not and is a total antithesis to God's purpose & Christianity...Last edited by apostoli; 07-14-2014, 07:48 AM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI think you're more like a caricature of the opposing viewpoint, Apostoli.
Also, note that according to A.John, the first mass conversation to Christ occurred amongst the Samaritans not the Jews... Additionally note, that Jesus did not directly reveal himself to the Jews (including the disciples) as the awaited Christ (albeit, he did hint at it to the blind man he had healed)...for the Jews (including the disciples) were subject to revelation, but Jesus told the Samaritans directly. Why was that?Last edited by apostoli; 07-15-2014, 02:39 AM.
Comment
-
John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
The record of the many being converted in Samaria followed these events.
In Matthew 16, Peter declares that Jesus is the Christ. Peter did not need to be told by Jesus, because the Father revealed it. When Peter made that declaration, Jesus confirmed it to be so in the presence of his disciples, and told them not to make it known. The record is unclear whether this was said only to the twelve, or to the twelve and a wider group of disciples. However, it can only be that the injunction was temporary. At some later time Jesus quite clearly did reveal his identity, for in Matthew 23 - spoken to "the multitude" while criticising the scribes and pharisees - he made it plain that he was the Christ ... "Do not be called "rabbi" for one is your teacher, the Christ ..."
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 “This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Thus, Jesus did affirm the Old Testament law, and its meaning was commonly understood - though it can be argued that Jesus declared it to be kept more in the breach than the observance. Nor can it be argued that these matters were not part of the law - they are the first two articles of the decalogue.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post[color=#aa00aa]Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 “This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Thus, Jesus did affirm the Old Testament law, and its meaning was commonly understood - though it can be argued that Jesus declared it to be kept more in the breach than the observance. Nor can it be argued that these matters were not part of the law - they are the first two articles of the decalogue.Last edited by apostoli; 07-15-2014, 08:42 AM.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
|
35 responses
166 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
Yesterday, 08:28 AM
|
||
Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
|
4 responses
49 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-17-2024, 04:26 PM | ||
Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
|
10 responses
119 views
1 like
|
Last Post
by mikewhitney
03-13-2024, 06:38 PM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
|
14 responses
72 views
3 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
03-01-2024, 09:15 AM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
|
13 responses
60 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
03-01-2024, 07:26 AM
|
Comment