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Old Testament Laws and Modern Christianity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Hebrews 9:4 teaches that the "tables of the covenant" are included in the Old Covenant that was abrogated (cf. Hebrews 8:13).

    The tables of the covenant were the Decalogue (Exodus 24:16).

    Keil & Delitzsch: Into this ark Moses was to put “the testimony” (העדת; cf. Exodus 40:20). This is the name given to the two tables of stone, upon which the ten words spoken by God to the whole nation were written, and which Moses was to receive from God (Exodus 24:12). Because these ten words were the declaration of God upon the basis of which the covenant was concluded (Exodus 34:27-28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:1-2), these tables were called the tables of testimony (ch. Exodus 31:18; Exodus 34:29), or tables of the covenant (Deuteronomy 9:9; Deuteronomy 11:15).
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=1&ch=25

    Circumcision also pre-dated the Mosaic code (cf. Genesis 17) but it too has been abrogated.
    "Tables"? Might you not mean "tablets of stone"? That's the way it is in the NCV.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #32
      having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant (Hebrews 9:4, NASB)
      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...4&version=NASB

      Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant (Hebrews 9:4, KJV)
      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A4&version=KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        How does anything that you just wrote contradict what I last said?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Foudroyant, I think the best way of looking at it is that yes, the entire covenant was repealed. That would include the moral laws. But even assuming that it was all repealed, the New Testament reinstitutes the entirety of the moral law. Furthermore, in a sense, the moral laws were a component of the mosaic code that predated the mosaic code. When Hebrews 8 is talking about doing away with the covenant, it specifically mentions that a new covenant appears in its place. And the new covenant includes "laws." The main distinction that Paul makes between the old and new covenants (including in chapter 8) is that the old covenant had animal sacrifices, whereas the new covenant had a single human sacrifice.

          1. Is the command to obey the 7th day of rest (Sabbath) a moral law? Please provide proof for your answer.
          2. You mentioned about animal sacrifices in your discussion of Hebrews 8 but the entire Decalogue was said to be abrogated as well.

          Comment


          • #35
            1. No. Hebrews specifically says that the sabbath was a prophetic ritual.
            2. I said that the entire decalogue was abrogated, but that all the non-ceremonial parts were then reaffirmed.

            Romans 3
            31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


            Romans 13
            8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
            9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

            Comment


            • #36
              ok thanks

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                How is the new prohibition "independent" of the old, if the new prohibition specifically references the old?
                Do you have any specific examples in mind?
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #38
                  If the Old Testament law is still important, why don't most Christians spend much time reading books like Leviticus or Deuteronomy?
                  Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                  "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                  "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
                    Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
                    Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
                    Keep in sight the different laws that are referred to when "law" is mentioned. Context has to be VERY carefully considered. Law of Christ and Law of Moses/Old Testament are very different matters
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      No they're not. Jesus didn't teach anything other than the law of Moses, except with slightly different emphases. The reason Christians don't study Leviticus and Deuteronomy is because they are ignorant and faithless. Most Christians don't spend much time on the Bible in general, new testament or old. The new testament says that all scripture is useful.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        No they're not. Jesus didn't teach anything other than the law of Moses, except with slightly different emphases...
                        I advocate that Jesus was oppositional to the Law of Moses. In the Gospels he is regularly depicted as breaking many of Moses' ordinances, and in the defenses (as with A.Paul) reference against his opponents was to the Decologue (the Law of God) which Moses had smashed to pieces in his temper against the Israelites infamy...

                        ps: Moses' Lore spoke of Jesus' preexistence (cp. John 8:40 & Gen 18) but his Law did not and is a total antithesis to God's purpose & Christianity...
                        Last edited by apostoli; 07-14-2014, 07:48 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I think you're more like a caricature of the opposing viewpoint, Apostoli.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            I think you're more like a caricature of the opposing viewpoint, Apostoli.
                            Am I? Demonstrate to us where Jesus once defended Moses' ordinances in their common understanding...

                            Also, note that according to A.John, the first mass conversation to Christ occurred amongst the Samaritans not the Jews... Additionally note, that Jesus did not directly reveal himself to the Jews (including the disciples) as the awaited Christ (albeit, he did hint at it to the blind man he had healed)...for the Jews (including the disciples) were subject to revelation, but Jesus told the Samaritans directly. Why was that?
                            Last edited by apostoli; 07-15-2014, 02:39 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
                              The record of the many being converted in Samaria followed these events.

                              In Matthew 16, Peter declares that Jesus is the Christ. Peter did not need to be told by Jesus, because the Father revealed it. When Peter made that declaration, Jesus confirmed it to be so in the presence of his disciples, and told them not to make it known. The record is unclear whether this was said only to the twelve, or to the twelve and a wider group of disciples. However, it can only be that the injunction was temporary. At some later time Jesus quite clearly did reveal his identity, for in Matthew 23 - spoken to "the multitude" while criticising the scribes and pharisees - he made it plain that he was the Christ ... "Do not be called "rabbi" for one is your teacher, the Christ ..."

                              Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 “This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
                              Thus, Jesus did affirm the Old Testament law, and its meaning was commonly understood - though it can be argued that Jesus declared it to be kept more in the breach than the observance. Nor can it be argued that these matters were not part of the law - they are the first two articles of the decalogue.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                [color=#aa00aa]Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 “This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
                                Thus, Jesus did affirm the Old Testament law, and its meaning was commonly understood - though it can be argued that Jesus declared it to be kept more in the breach than the observance. Nor can it be argued that these matters were not part of the law - they are the first two articles of the decalogue.
                                Imu, we need to differentiate between God's Law (the Decalogue) and Moses' ordinances, the later being punishing and detrimental (and according to A.Paul unobservable in completeness), the former being practical guidance ... probably why Christians can ignore Moses' ordinances (which became to be (according to Jesus) situated above God's intention eg: Moses' divorce ordinances).
                                Last edited by apostoli; 07-15-2014, 08:42 AM.

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