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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


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According to preterism there is no devil [in the world today].

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    When the bit you put in parentheses substantially alters the meaning of the sentence, it probably shouldn't be offset by them.
    It is a necessary qualification as to why there is now no devil [according to the preterist view].
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Why, pray tell? I'd like to see your (or any futurist's, for that matter) reasoning for that assertion.
      It is not an assertion that the text says, " . . . that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: . . . " -- Revelation 20:3.

      Pleases present and demonstrate how that is an assertion.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Goes to show the error of preterism.
        Yea, I'm such a scoundrel.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
          Yes I know, I didn't imply that. To clarify, because some of us futurists see the end of all evil and deception to sin when Satan goes into the Lake of Fire, we also expect to see it when Satan is bound in the Abyss.
          The logical implication is pelagianism.
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            It is a necessary qualification as to why there is now no devil [according to the preterist view].
            Don't know of any that think that.
            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

            sigpic

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            • #21
              It occurs to me that this is the first thread in my entire Tweb career that has ever been instigated by something I said.

              Yea, I'm kinda a big deal. *puts on sunglasses*

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                It is not an assertion that the text says, " . . . that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: . . . " -- Revelation 20:3.

                Pleases present and demonstrate how that is an assertion.
                I never said the text is an assertion. Can you make a point without misrepresentation? The foregoing question is rhetorical. There's no need to answer it. Is Satan the only being dealing in evil or being deceitful?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  The logical implication is pelagianism.
                  If "pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid," a futurist view is that divine aid is necessary to first bind Satan in the Abyss then finally cast him into the Lake of Fire in order to eradicate the evil inclination. Until the evil inclination is eradicated, we may not consider Satan to be bound yet: Satan wouldn't be working "underground" while bound, he and thus evil would be incapacitated. Adam let Satan into humanity, Jesus casts him out of it. So it would seem to be be an opposing view.

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                  • #24
                    No not really, you fortunately are inconsistent with the hybridization of rabbinic Judaism with Christianity.
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                    sigpic

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                      No not really, you fortunately are inconsistent with the hybridization of rabbinic Judaism with Christianity.
                      I'm not sure which part sounds like pelagianism, the Jewish source I referenced agrees that sin entered humans through Adam and Eve. Of course I don't accept everything Jewish sources say, but I agree with some of them.

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                      • #26
                        The part where you implied that it is just the devil that causes sin, and that man would be good little boys if he were to disappear today.
                        The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                        sigpic

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                        • #27
                          The logic seems sound to me for this being Pelagian. Taken to a logical extreme, this could also mean that people could blame the devil for their sin and not take any personal responsibility. And of course people can make that argument all they want, but they would be wrong.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                            The part where you implied that it is just the devil that causes sin, and that man would be good little boys if he were to disappear today.
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            The logic seems sound to me for this being Pelagian. Taken to a logical extreme, this could also mean that people could blame the devil for their sin and not take any personal responsibility. And of course people can make that argument all they want, but they would be wrong.
                            That Satan tempts us to sin isn't a free ride to say "devil made me do it" to avoid responsibility, it's a call to ask Jesus to fight Satan for us, and to forgive us if we fail. If in God's plans it isn't in the cards and He chooses not to have us turn to Him, as He hardened Pharaoh's heart, then we won't turn to Him in the first place. This doesn't indicate Pelagianism which seems to imply that we can always choose God out of free will no matter what, and we know from Pharaoh's example that's not the case, God has to allow it.

                            Pelagianism in part also denies that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we don't need God to avoid sin, where I claim the opposite. What the Bible does imply is that Adam was never tempted before the influence of Satan by way of Eve, and that Satan is key in tempting man, from Job to Jesus. And that Satan is bound in the Abyss so he can deceive the nations no more. Then later Satan is gone for good in the Lake of Fire, and after...

                            Revelation 21:3-4 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
                            So at this point, is there any more temptation to sin, where sin causes death, sorrow, crying, pain? Doesn't seem so. Where did the temptation to sin go? Seems to me it went into the Lake of Fire. Right now Satan and thus some temptations can be removed by God. In the end I see them being removed for good. So my question is, at the point of Revelation 21 cited, are humans still sinning or being tempted to sin? If not, what happens to that temptation?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              I never said the text is an assertion. Can you make a point without misrepresentation? The foregoing question is rhetorical. There's no need to answer it. Is Satan the only being dealing in evil or being deceitful?
                              Well then I misunderstood your argument. I know man can do sin all by himself, and does not need any help from the Devil. I am also not persuaded that the Devil is not still in this world.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
                                It occurs to me that this is the first thread in my entire Tweb career that has ever been instigated by something I said.

                                Yea, I'm kinda a big deal. *puts on sunglasses*
                                You are welcome my friend.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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