What was Y'shua's sacrafice???
What was Y'shua's sacrafice???
What I am about to present to you is taken from a dear friend of mine. He posted this in another discussion board, one that I'm sure no one here has been too...
However, I will leave his two posts untainted, then present what I replied with... and there is still so much more to be discussed on this issue....
Without furhter adue, here it is:
(p.s. His name is Mikha'el, and He's a rabbi in Alaska who believes in Y'shua... I will also point out he previously was involved as a Rabbi in a Hassidic congregation in California, and now is the Rabbi of a conservative group in Alaska)
What was Yeshua's Sacrifice?
I'm writing this because I've been toiling over some different ideas and problems lately and I'd likd as much feedback as I can get. Please be patient as I'm sure it will be long. I feel I need to be as exhaustive as I can for anyone else to understand where I'm coming from.
Sometime ago, I set out to do a study on why Yeshua was the Messiah. Taking a look at all the prophesies concerning Him. Along the way, I came into a few difficulties and sought out some help in that area. I came to a few new conclusions as well, and this weekend I spent some time praying and think I've finally got the salvation thing worked out.
The reason I picked this particular forum to voice this opinion was because we already stand together in the understanding that a Jew who is Torah observant and love's HaShem with his whole heart, soul and mind does not need to accept Messiah in order to be saved.
In the book of Hebrews Shaul talks about how Yeshua was our Kapparah for that great Yom Kippur.
I'll begin with this: I struggled with all these Christians that go around talking about "Jesus died for my sins, and is in my heart". The problem I have is, why? So I searched out the prophesies that relate to Moshiach ben Yosef. They all speak of Israel as a whole, not the individual. He was going to come to bear the iniquities of Israel, not Joe Shmo. The second problem I had was a question the Rabbi's have posed. A sin sacrifice is always done for the past sin, not the one you're about to commit. So how can Yeshua's sacrifice be valid if it's paying for everyone's sin past, present and future?
As many know, Israel was divided into two nations after Solomon's death. Northern Israel and Judah. In Yirmeyahu 3 we read how HaShem divorced Israel / Ephraim. Paul then talks about in Romans how the woman who is divorced by her husband and runs off to another, cannot remarry the first husband (this is also found in Deut 24), but if the first husband dies, then she is set free from that which was binding her to him and she is no longer commiting adultery.
Idolatry was one of the things that HaShem hated the most, and here was one of His brides commiting idolatry and in Hoshea we're told that He was going to call them not His people and then His people again. (For those of you who are wondering, this is not a two house teaching, I'm not talking about two house as many teach it today, just bear with me). So Hoshea warns us that Northern Israel would become not his people and then we see Yirmeyahu tell us when that happened.
But Moshiach ben Yosef was to come and die for the transgressions of the people! We're not really told about how Northern Israel was to become His people again, we're only told they will.
So, I've come to a certain conclusion. Messiah came in the name of the Father. Whether you belive in the virgin birth or not, the prophecies say that Moshiach will inherit the name of HaShem. So in essense, by inheriting the name of HaShem, his death was the same as though HaShem, the first husband, had died. Now, Israel was freed from the "title" of whore. She was able to come back to HaShem and no longer be in an adulterous affair.
So what was Yeshua's sacrifice? Was it a pay in advance sacrifice? I'd say that no, it is not, on one hand. It was done so that Israel might be able to come back. Remember that a woman cannot come back to her first husband, but if he dies she is released, and upon his ressurection, she can then marry him again. So, Messiah died for the transgressions of the forefathers, that caused the descendants non-access to their G-d. How can I say then that this is a pay it forward situation? Today, those that were part of Israel and have walked away from HaShem can have that access to him through Messiah. But what about the sins I commit today? As we've seen in times when there was no Temple in the TaNaKh, we get salvation from Teshuvah. When we repent, and turn our eyes towards HaShem, we are then forgiven our sins.
What of Judah though? Judah was never divorced. And for those who have kept the lifestyle of Torah wiht love for G-d and not just out of habit, there is salvation. How does this line up with what we're taught in the New Testament? In Matt. 9:12-13 Yeshua says that the well are not in need of a doctor, but only the sick. He had not come for the righteous but for the sinners. This implies that there are those who are righteous. We also see in Mark 1:2-5 that Yochanan was immersing in the Immersion of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. What? How could he do that, Yeshua hadn't even died yet. Some might argue that his was before the death of Messiah and it was all looking forward to Messiah. Ok, then what they're saying is that, yes, infact, G-d does indeed change. Another interesting passage is in John 4:22. Yeshua is talking with the woman at the well and said to her that they didn't know who they worshipped, but the Jews knew their G-d. Then he says, "You see, salvation is From the Jews". He did not say "to the Jews". Why didn't he say that salvation came from Him?
Another misconception is when Christians think that Yehsua died so that they could be saved. Oy! Can anyone name me a verse in the TaNaKh where salvation was not offered to the Gentiles that wanted to join HaShem? Of course not. There has always been an invitation and a plan for the salvation of anyone who wanted to join HaShem. It wasn't only Hebrews at the foot of Sinai, but they were all Israel. There were Egyptians there as well as descendants of Jacob. They all received the Torah together.
In short, what I've come to understand is this:
Yeshua came a died so that the sins of our forfathers that rejected HaShem and followed after idols could be done away with, once and for all. By this, our descendants are allowed access to HaShem and are given the opportunity to be saved. It is a great thing that he's done. But once we've returned, or made teshuvah, we must follow Torah and it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved. A little prayer when you're twenty doesn't give you assurance of "Salvation". It is walking daily with HaShem until the end that assures us a part in the Olam HaBa. As it is said, he that lives his life Holy and in his last days curses HaShem will have no part in the Olam HaBa, yet he who has lived wickedly, if he makes teshuvah at the end of his days, it will all be accounted righteousness to him.
I'd appreciate any comments and corrections in my reasoning. Thanks for hearing me out. I'm still not sure that I've made my view understood, I'm not sure how to articulate this subject well.
A couple more
I forgot to mention a couple of other things that led me to this understanding. There are two scriptures where Yeshua makes a couple of different, interesting statements.
Matt. 10:1-6 He sends out his Talmidim and tells them not to go to the Gentiles, but go unto the lost sheep of the "House" of Israel.
Matt. 15:22-24 There is a Gentile woman who comes to him and He tells her that he came only to the lost sheep of the "House" of Israel.
Also remember that in Yirmeyahu 31:31-34 HaShem says that He'll make a New Covenant with the "House" of Israel and the "House" of Judah. He then goes on to say that He'll write the Torah on the hearts of those from the House of Israel. Judah had it there already, for they had not lost their husband.
His mission was not necessarily unto the Gentile, nor the Jew. It was to lost Israel. As I understand, the common phrase used, Sinners, was directed towards the Hellenistic Jews, who had abandoned Torah. So when he came for sinners, it was for those who left Torah by the wayside instead of speaking about it to their children when they walked along the wayside.
What about the references made towards the Gentile now being able to be saved? Acts 10 and other passages that are related? I'd suggest that it's becuase come this time in history the Halacha to become an Israelite was so strict that many Gentiles weren't coming to faith. The Jewish people of the day were not being as bright a light unto the nations as possibly they could have been. In making such restrictions, they called the Gentiles unclean, when in fact, HaShem did not call them unclean. The middle wall of partition that was broken down was actually that fence around Torah that prohibited the coming of the Gentiles, or at least making it so difficult.
I do find it interesting that today's Pharisees (modern day Judaism) so much of their teachings that Yehsua came against in the first century, has changed to match more closely to Yeshua's teachings on those particular subjects. The first century Judaism is not identicle to today's Judaism. There are differences in the teachings today, at least since the inquisition and the crusades and Yom HaShoah, but for the most part, teachings on the heart issues are in line with Yeshua's teachings.
Another interesting one, to me anyway, is where it talks about believing in Yeshua and being saved. If we read that a little differently and place commas in different locations, being Greek nor Hebrew have commas, it would say
"Believe in the L-rd Yeshua, and be saved". In other words, if you believe in Yeshua and what he did, you can return unto HaShem and be saved by HaShem.
I guess this is about my 64 cents worth, since it's far more than 2 cents.
Again, I welcome any and all responses. If I'm way out there, show me. If you've just never seen it that way and think it's worth considering, tell me that too.
And now my own words....
I had also posted in this thread my take on Acts 10, which I feel applies to the discussion at hand. However, first I will post my reply to the above posts...
My reply #1:
I have to be honest, there is so much more that I want to discuss concerning this very topic!!!
We have barely begun to unveil what lies beneath, nu?
None the less, what I feel is the most important statement Y'shua made regarding this topic is:
"I came only for the lost sheep of Yisra'el..."
That's quite a bold statement.
Combine it with, "I did not come for the healthy but for the sick" and other such statements, we begin to see that Y'shua did not come for everyone... correct?
He references this idea several times.
One more thing that I noticed the other day...
Sha'ul, in Acts 21, had just returned from his "missionary" journey. Who did he go to see???
Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
Hmmm.... seems to me that Sha'ul went to the Jews, nu?
We have to remember, that according to Jewish Halacha of the First Century, a Jew who had turned away from Torah and Yisrael was no longer Jewish, but a gentile... and that they were less than a gentile! (i.e. the Samaritans, ect.)
I have so much more to say about that, but first I want to share a few thoughts on Acts 10, that I feel are quite related....
to be continued...
My reply #2
Acts 10 Controversy...
This past Shabbat, I had the incredible opportunity to spend several hours with Avi ben Mordechai (author of Messiah volumes 1-3). He is probably the deepest individual I have ever been blessed with the opportunity to meet. We discussed very intensely Acts chapter 10, and I would like to present these ideas to you.
Of course many of you know that Acts 10 has been used by the ch-rch to prove that G-d did away with Kashrut (Kosher) mitzvot.
And amongst some messianic circles (the observant anyway) it is taught that this idea is wrong because Ha Shem gave the interpretation to the dream, and that interpretation is that the gentiles are clean.
However, I will present the more mystical ideas behind the reasoning WHY HaShem presented Kepha with that conclusion, as well as clarify the conclusion itself (which I believe is slightly misconstrued).
Let's start with Act 10:
"9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance."
There is some type of a reoccuring theme of hunger. If any of you have an insight into this, please share...
"11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners."
Now this is interesting...
It actually says in the Greek, that the "heavens" not heaven opened. This is in reference to mystical esoteric Judaism, but we will not go too deep into that aspect. Suffice it to say that in Midrash Rabbah Ecclesiastes 9:8 (a parable about wedding garments) we can determine that this "something like a sheet" is a tallit, as we can see it has four courners.
But, back to the meat of the subject...
"12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air."
This is where I believe the heart of the matter to lie.
What are these four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds? What do they represent? Why specifically are these creatures listed?
Let us first turn to Tehillim (psalms) 115:1-8
"1 Not to us, O L-RD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness.
2 Why do the nations say, "Where is their G-d?"
3 Our G-d is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them."
Take special note of vs. 8...
They will become like that which they worship. Now turn with me to Romans 1
"18 The wrath of G-d is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness..."
Just a note: in order to suppress the truth, you must first have the truth. So this is speaking of those who have had the truth, but now suppress the truth.
"19 since what may be known about G-d is plain to them, because G-d has made
it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world G-d's invisible qualities--his
eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
One way in which we interpret (well, this should be the only way) the Brit Chadasha is by using the Tanach as our dictionary. Interestingly, in the Hebrew Brit Chadasha the word behind "men" in vs. 20 is "adam" not "ish". Adam (man) is ONLY used in reference to Yisrael, never to refer to
It is a term soley used for referal to Yisrael only.
Now, if you also look at Zech. 10 you will see the story of Ephraim, or the dispersed of Yisrael. These are the Jews who were a dispersed (now of the diaspora). There are many many prophecies of the regathering of Yisrael. In fact, it is this group which Y'shua was primarily interested in reaching:
Mattiyahu 15:25 "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Yisrael."
So, here (rom. 1) we have a group that is clearly referred to as Yisrael, yet has forsaken Torah... a group I think is obviously the dispersion (or any of Yisrael unfaithful to Torah, but mainly in reference to the dispersion as so many prophecies are in alignment).
Let us continue in Rom.1:
"21 For although they knew G-d, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal G-d for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."
AHA! Here we are...
so, this group that was given Torah, but has forsaken (or suppressed) Torah has fallen into worship of: birds, animals, and reptiles....
remember psalms 115? They became what they worshipped?
"24 Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen."
Here we have it! They WORSHIPPED these created beings, as opposed to the Creator Being.
Now let's take a look at Ezekiel 34
"7 `Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the L-RD:
8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign L-RD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock...
11 "`For this is what the Sovereign L-RD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them....
28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid.
29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations.
30 Then they will know that I, the L-RD their G-d, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign L-RD. 31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign L-RD.'"
and Hosea 2 (which many of you are familiar with):
"23 I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called `Not my loved one. ' I will say to those called `Not my people, ' `You are my people'; and they will say, `You are my G-d.'"
Now, according to 1st century Halacha, those of the dispersion were called not His people... even though Jewish by birth, they were rejected as being Jews. We know this is the dispersion because chapter 1 says:
"10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, `You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living G-d.' 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel."
We can even tie this in even tighter... look again at ch. 2:18
"In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety."
So, it is with the people who had Torah, who WERE a part of Yisrael, who suppressed or rejected Torah, that Ha Shem is now making this covenant with!
The people who are called birds, beasts, and reptiles!
We even have final proof from Acts 10 as well...
"28He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But G-d has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean..."
Again, the word in the Hebrew texts is "adam", not "ish"... thus Cornelius was a part of the dispersion. Maybe he didn't know it, but he WAS! Maybe many of you who are turning to Torah (and I'm not saying this as factually) are a part of the dispersion. Many many people who have been empassioned to follow Torah in these times have looked through their family history and have found that they do in fact have Jewish blood. Now, I am not in support of the 10 tribes theories, replacement theology, or any of that nonesense. But it is very likely that if your heart has been captured for Torah that you are a part of Yisrael's bloodline and do not know it.
Now, gentiles have always been allowed to join themselves to Yisrael either through conversion, or what is known as a righteous gentile (and there was even a specific place in the Temple set aside for the righeous gentile). Thus, I am in no way excluding gentiles from the kingdom, the door has always been open, and always will be. But in acts 10, something very different was going on.
Finally, the statement made in the vision:
"Get up, Kepha, Kill and eat." vs. 13
there is also something else going on behind these scenes. If Ha Shem desired Kepha to actually eat unclean food, you would have seen that as:
1) the conclusion of the dream
2) a HUGE ordeal made about unclean animals now food...
yet, neither are EVER addressed... ever.
So what does it mean to kill and eat?
Is anyone here familiar with Zevach Shalamim? This is what is called the peace offering. This is where one side of the two parties makes a sacrafice, then they eat the sacrafice together. This can be seen in Bereshith (gen.) 31:51-54
What I believe Ha Shem was showing was that Kepha was to go and make peace with those who were cut off from being called G-d's people. In other words, to make a Zevach Shalamim... or Shalom.
We can also see this as a continual struggle for Kepha, when we read on into
Hopefully, the waters are clearer and not muddier concerning Acts 10.
PLEASE share your thoughts, and tell me what you think of all this.
Shalom to you as you weigh this out in your minds,
p.s. I owe many of the ideas presented to Avi ben Mordechai. He revealed much of this to me in our discussions
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam
"Those who love your Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim (psalms) 119:165