Ramadan

[Bill the Cat]

So, now it's 4 times...

[Cow Poke]

Siam, I've yet to see you say anything positive in this thread about the Jews in Israel, or attempt to sympathize with the atrocities committed against them by the terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank.

[Jedidiah]

And I dare say you will not get any such thing.

[siam]

Further responses to some previous comments.....

The Prophet(pbuh) wanted to impose "his religion" forcefully---
The Prophet began reciting the verses of the Quran from 610 CE when the first revelations began. At this time the Holy Shrine (Kaaba) built by the monotheist Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (pbut) was filled with various deities. The generic name for the (Supreme) God was "Allah" used by both Pagans and Christians---The Pagan Allah had daughters, the Christian Allah had a son. The Kaaba was also filled with the deities of other tribes to encourage them to make the pilgrimage to Mecca to worship "their" gods.(and also trade) This was a source of revenue for the Meccan elites.
The Prophet called on the Meccans to turn to worship the One God Allah who has no partners or offspring. The God of Abraham. Surah 2 verse 136 "Say you: We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord:..."
HOWEVER, though the Prophet invited people to worship the One God, neither he nor the other converts destroyed the Pagan idols at the Kaaba. They did not do so when the were in Mecca, the did not do so after the victory of Badr, they did not make it a condition of the Peace treaty of Hudaibiya. The Muslims initially prayed facing Jerusalem, but in Medina the direction of prayers was changed to the Kaaba in Mecca which was still housing idols!!. In 630 CE when Mecca surrenders and a general amnesty is given, the idols of the Kaaba are destroyed and the Meccans voluntarily convert to Islam (including Abu Sufiyan the leader of Mecca).

The concept of religious freedom in the (traditional) Sharia---
The Meccans were fighting the Muslims because of economic concerns but the Muslims were fighting to protect the right to freedom of worship. This idea that all human beings have a right to freely follow their religion is part of the Sharia. So, Non-Muslims were allowed to follow their own religious laws and did not have to follow the Sharia, but could use Sharia courts if they chose to do so. Thus, in the traditional practice of Sharia, Non-Muslims had the freedom to have their own laws and their own courts. Nevertheless, Court records of the Ottoman period show that Non-Muslims frequently used Sharia courts because these courts were fair and just.

[siam]

Israel/Palestine.

Here are some Jewish voices from the net----

Tikkun Daily is a Magazine that frequently covers the I/P.
here is an example of a recent piece....
In the 2012 documentary,The Gatekeepers, Avraham Shalom, the head of Israel’s Shin Bet from 1980-1986, reaches the conclusion that Israel’s occupation of Gaza, Samaria and Judea has changed the character of the Israeli people. He says: “We’ve become cruel, to ourselves as well, but mainly to the occupied population, using the excuse of war against terror.”

Shin Bet is the Israeli intelligence organization responsible for Israel’s defense against terrorism. It conducts anti-terrorism and intelligence operations in the West Bank and Gaza. In The Gatekeepers, filmmaker Dror Moreh interviews six men who headed the organization from 1980-2011. They all agree that an end to the occupation is the only way to bring about peace and Israeli national security. They also say that negotiations with Israel’s enemies are necessary.

Shalom argues that Israel ought to talk to any and every one for the sake of peace.
http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/

Here are voices from the Israel Defense Force (IDF)---
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/2...on_in_our_name
We are Israeli reservists. We refuse to serve," announcing that more than 50 former Israeli soldiers have signed a petition declaring their refusal to be part of the Israeli military reserves. "This petition, long in the making, has a special urgency because of the brutal military operation now taking place in our name,"

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/
Richard Silverstien runs the blog Tikkun Olam and looks very closely at the I/P situation.
"I don’t know how many times I can use the word “shame” before it loses its value. But this is an act of deep shame. A stain on Israel and anyone who cares about Israel."

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/20...ased-on-a-lie/

other sites that give information about the I/P

Juan Cole writes "Informed Comment"
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/chil...nly-there.html
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/isra...00-people.html
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/evac...e-stewart.html

Al Jazeera (News)
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...918975321.html

AJ+ labs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SAVC...3IgbqVPtEIQOp1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Q9p...3IgbqVPtEIQOp1

Channel 4 news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftUieMPTZk

[siam]

[Jedidiah]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ll=1#post82350

[Cerebrum123]

Some points have been brought up to which I would like to respond.
I would have preferred not to give links---just names---as this leaves searchers with more options---but for those who are too lazy, I am making an exception......

Sources---For Muslims, the time of the Revelations and of the Prophet is "Sacred History" (about God) so events, actions and interpretations are viewed in this light. (Western historians prefer to take the "sacred" out and present plain "History"---or at least their view of it)

for a taste of traditional Muslim accounts, one can read----
"Muhammed: His life based on the earliest sources" by Martin Lings.
https://archive.org/details/MartinLi...arliestSources

for a view of both "Sacred History" and "Plain History" you can listen to---
Khalid Blankenship ...a Muslim Historian---The Life of the Prophet (1 and 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czFyujVPVs0

For a view of "Plain History" from a Non-Muslim, revisionist perspective you can listen to---
Fred Donner, How Islam Began.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA


Karen Armstrong gives a non-Muslim, non-revisionist perspective (I have disagreements with some of her points)
Muhammed: A Prophet of our Time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TI5CHQuac

a book that I would recommend is "Muhammed for beginners" by Ziauddin Sardar and Zafar Abbas Malik.

You can't expect me to take you seriously after that, can you?

[Cerebrum123]

Further responses to some previous comments.....

The Prophet(pbuh) wanted to impose "his religion" forcefully---
The Prophet began reciting the verses of the Quran from 610 CE when the first revelations began. At this time the Holy Shrine (Kaaba) built by the monotheist Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (pbut) was filled with various deities. The generic name for the (Supreme) God was "Allah" used by both Pagans and Christians---The Pagan Allah had daughters, the Christian Allah had a son. The Kaaba was also filled with the deities of other tribes to encourage them to make the pilgrimage to Mecca to worship "their" gods.(and also trade) This was a source of revenue for the Meccan elites.
The Prophet called on the Meccans to turn to worship the One God Allah who has no partners or offspring. The God of Abraham. Surah 2 verse 136 "Say you: We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord:..."
HOWEVER, though the Prophet invited people to worship the One God, neither he nor the other converts destroyed the Pagan idols at the Kaaba. They did not do so when the were in Mecca, the did not do so after the victory of Badr, they did not make it a condition of the Peace treaty of Hudaibiya. The Muslims initially prayed facing Jerusalem, but in Medina the direction of prayers was changed to the Kaaba in Mecca which was still housing idols!!. In 630 CE when Mecca surrenders and a general amnesty is given, the idols of the Kaaba are destroyed and the Meccans voluntarily convert to Islam (including Abu Sufiyan the leader of Mecca).

The concept of religious freedom in the (traditional) Sharia---
The Meccans were fighting the Muslims because of economic concerns but the Muslims were fighting to protect the right to freedom of worship. This idea that all human beings have a right to freely follow their religion is part of the Sharia. So, Non-Muslims were allowed to follow their own religious laws and did not have to follow the Sharia, but could use Sharia courts if they chose to do so. Thus, in the traditional practice of Sharia, Non-Muslims had the freedom to have their own laws and their own courts. Nevertheless, Court records of the Ottoman period show that Non-Muslims frequently used Sharia courts because these courts were fair and just.

False. Mohammed had every idol in the Kaaba destroyed. Do you really think you can just gloss over the things you don't like?

Source: Answering Islam

[After the conquest of Mecca] Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told 'Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced. (Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources [Inner Traditions International, Ltd., One Park Street, Rochester, Vermont 05767; 1983], p. 300; ref.: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah vol. 1, p. 107)

... pictures of the prophets and pictures of trees and of angels. Among them there was a picture of Ibrahim as of an elderly man, drawing lots with arrow lots, and the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and a picture with angels. (Al-Azraqi according to the Arabic text edited by Ferdinand Wuestenfeld, Chroniken der Stadt Mekka, Band 1, Leipzig 1858, reprint Beyrouth 1964, p. 110)

On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House (= the Kaaba; my comment) and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother. (Source: soc.religion.islam newsgroup posting)

© Copyright Original Source

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/idolatry.htm

Yeah, I'm done, there's not really an reason to take you seriously anymore after this point.

[Cow Poke]

Do you really think you can just gloss over the things you don't like?

Yup -- that's all he's got.

[Bill the Cat]

Israel/Palestine.

Here are some Jewish voices from the net----

How about you actually address what I've been yelling for 5 posts now? Do you think the Muslim terrorists are right for firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel?

[Bill the Cat]

Al Jazeera??? That wonderful Qatar based propaganda machine?

So, let's fact check this little 11 day old garbage piece, shall we?

Claim 1: at 0 min 10 sec
Israel receives over half of all US foreign aid

Fact
In 2012, the latest current annual figures, according to the U.S. Overseas Loans and Grants (Greenbook at http://gbk.eads.usaidallnet.gov/), the US gave $48.4B in total Economic and Military assistance. Israel received $3B while Afghanistan received $12.9B

Result
Claim 1 is a blatant lie

************************

Claim 2: at 0 min 28 sec
US Aid to Israel has totaled $121B and counting

Fact
This amount has been given over 6 decades, totaling just $2.2B per year. From just 2002-1010, US reconstruction aid alone to Afghanistan and Iraq has totaled over $110B. Additionally, US Foreign aid to Israel dropped by 50% from 2000 to 2010.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40213.pdf

Result
Claim 2 is over-exaggerated when viewed against the amount of aid sent to Afghanistan and Iraq in 1/7th the time.

**********************

Claim 3: at 0 min 33 sec
Unlike most other countries, most of Israel's aid is given to its military

Fact
Egypt receives the 4th most aid from the US, and over 92% is for military purposes. Afghanistan's is just under 75%, Iraq is just under 60%, and Pakistan is over 63%. So, out of the top 5 countries that receive aid from the US, ALL 5 have that in common. http://gbk.eads.usaidallnet.gov/

Result
Another overblown claim that also applies to 4 Muslim countries

****************************

Claim 4: at 0 min 44 sec
Israeli Military has been accused of "war crimes" by the United Nations

Fact
The UN accuses EVERYONE of war crimes... Including Hamas

Result
It's like claiming that Israel has a border. Singling out Israel's military for being accused by the UN for "war crimes" is solely for shock value.

**************************

Claim 5: at 0 min 47 sec
Israeli Military has been called "trigger happy" by Amnesty International

Fact
The Amnesty International report cited by Al Jazeera here, Trigger-happy, Israel’s use of excessive force in the West Bank, has been thoroughly exposed as accounts of hearsay and intentional ignoring of the situations that caused the retaliations by Israel

Result
Amnesty's Senior Crisis Advisor admitted:

In Gaza, I received partial or inaccurate information by relatives of civilians accidentally killed in accidental explosions or by rockets launched by Palestinian armed groups towards Israel that had malfunctioned and of civilians killed by Israeli strikes on nearby Palestinian armed groups’ positions

So, this is an overblown Al Jazeera claim that Amnesty walked back

*****************************

Claim 6: at 1 min 00 sec
Stephen Walt quote

Fact
Stephen Walt has gone on record stating that "Israel is at the center of all Middle East conflicts" and he has been characterized by many on both ends of the political spectrum as "grossly anti-Semitic"

Result
Imagine that... an anti-Semite spewing anti-Semitism. Obvious troll is obvious.

****************************

Claim 7: at 1 min 10 sec
Congress gives Israel on average $3B per year

Fact
Since 2001, the US has reduced aid to Israel by 50% (from $4.2B to $2.3B). The US gives Egypt over $1.5 B per year (Down only 22%). The other top 3, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan have all seen huge increases.

Result
Another overblown statistic. Since 2001, the US has reduced aid to Israel by a much larger margin than all other countries in the top 5

********************************

Claim 8: at 1 min 29 sec
Iron Dome has cost the US over $700M

Fact
Iron Dome has a 90% success rate so far, so the cost is justifiable. The US gave Egypt 20 F-16'sand 200 Abrams tanks last year. Since the mid-80's the US has sent 2000 Abrams tanks to Egypt totaling just under $4B

Result
Yet another overblown claim with no context or comparison

****************************************

Claim 9: at 1 min 50 sec
Israel is one of the top 10 arms dealers in the world

Fact
They are #8 behind the United States, Russia, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, China, and Italy. According to the reports from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, most of the exports are aircraft and missile defense systems that are sold to India.

Result
No reason for this to be an issue at all

**************************************

Claim 10: at 1 min 52 sec
The US is one of Israel's biggest customers for arms

Fact
According to the SPIRI reports from 200-2013, less than 10% of Israel's sales were to the US. Israel has exported $7.1B during that time, and India and Turkey imported 4 times as much as the US.

Result
Yet another overblown claim with no context or comparison

**************************************

Claim 11: at 2 min 15 sec
USAid has given more in non-military aid than it has to any other nation in the Middle East

Fact
From the US Aid Overseas Grants and Loans web page, since its inception, Israel has received $34,068,875,417 in non-military loans and grants. Egypt has received $30,686,125,595.

Result
US grants and loans are very similar for Egypt and Israel.

***************************************

The rest is more Stephen Walt anti-Semitism and conjecture on the age old debate of having a force strong enough to deter versus merely defend one's self as best as you can.

[Jedidiah]

He will not deal with actual posts, Bill. He just will not.

[siam]

@ Bill
That was detailed and informative---thankyou.

I agree with you that Al Jazeera has bias (but it is my opinion that all mainstream Western news outlets are also biased)
You have your biases and I have miine.....and it is unlikely that either of us will change our minds on this........

U.S. "Aid" for Isreal comes in many forms---not just outright "Aid" as explained here in the report of congressional research service...
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $121 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in
bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance,
although in the past Israel also received significant economic assistance. Strong congressional
support for Israel has resulted in Israel receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for
example, Israel can use some U.S. military assistance both for research and development in the
United States and for military purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, U.S. assistance
earmarked for Israel is generally delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other
recipients normally receive aid in installments, and Israel (as is also the case with Egypt) is
permitted to use cash flow financing for its U.S. arms purchases. In addition to receiving U.S.
State Department-administered foreign assistance, Israel also receives funds from annual defense
appropriations bills for rocket and missile defense programs. Israel pursues some of those
programs jointly with the United States.
In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion
military aid package for the period from FY2009 to FY2018. During his March 2013 visit to
Israel, President Obama pledged that the United States would continue to provide Israel with
multi-year commitments of military aid subject to the approval of Congress.
The FY2014 Consolidated Appropriations Act (P.L. 113-76) provides the President’s full $3.1
billion request in FMF for Israel. In addition, it provides another $504 million in funding for
research, development, and production of Israel’s Iron Dome anti-rocket system ($235 million)
and of the joint U.S.-Israel missile defense systems David’s Sling ($149.7 million), the Arrow
improvement program (or Arrow II, $44.3 million), and Arrow III ($74.7 million).
For FY2015, the Administration is requesting $3.1 billion in FMF to Israel and $10 million in
Migration and Refugee Assistance. The Missile Defense Agency’s FY2015 request for joint U.S.-
Israeli programs is $96.8 million. The Administration also is requesting $175.9 million for Iron
Dome.

The "Military" aid to Afghanistan did not go to the country of Afghanistan---it went to U.S. subcontractors, U.S. military, and a handful of corrupt Afghan elites.

This is how it usually goes. First, donor agencies contract work out to “implementing partners,” who then also contract them out, several times over, often eventually tasking construction to businesses with ties to Afghanistan’s ruling elite — including the Karzai family, who have faced persistent accusations of corruption. Then, when what’s left of the money hits the ground, payments have to go out to local officials, police, and, increasingly, the Taliban themselves.

“By structure, international aid has created something that allows the money to go to the Taliban, to the police, to whoever is corrupt and is asking for money,” Yama Torabi, director of the local watchdog Integrity Watch Afghanistan, told VICE News in a 2013 interview.

But what the Taliban may get out of the deal is nothing in comparison to what Afghanistan’s elites make, and foreign contractors received before them — Torabi’s group estimates that 80 percent of foreign aid goes to someone outside Afghanistan.

“Instead of doing small contracts, like $1 million, they will do something like $500 million, and that will go to a company that’s going to sub-contract to other companies, and those companies will sub-contract to others,” he said. “You lose accountability when you do sub-contracting.” from:-
https://news.vice.com/article/the-us...in-afghanistan

also-- http://time.com/43836/afghanistan-is...s-foreign-aid/

Iron Dome Failure---http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/03/08/iron-dome-system-failed-miserably/
Turns out it’s a good thing for investors they couldn’t buy shares in this thing because, while it’s not exactly a fraud, the IDF lied through its teeth about the results. Their investment would’ve gone bust. Writing in Haaretz (Hebrew and English), military affairs columnist Reuven Pedatzur quotes three technical specialists who severely downgrade the effectiveness of Iron Dome.

The experts are Theodore Postol (whose findings are summarized in English here), Dr. Mordechai Shefer, and an unnamed scientist who worked for Iron Dome’s manufacturer, Raytheon, till recently. After examining hundreds of videos of Iron Dome launchings during the military campaign, they came to the conclusion that the anti-missile weapon may’ve shot down 5% of its targets. They define a definite kill as a missile hitting the nose of the rocket, where the weapons payload is. The IDF’s claims of success, they explain, result from confusion about the explosion that often occurred as the missile approached its target. In the vast majority of cases, the explosion was that of the missile self-destructing when it detected it would not strike the Palestinian rocket.

[siam]

My personal opinion of I/P ---honestly...I don't know what to think---I live in the East, we have our own problems here but as a human being and a Muslim, I am against injustice and oppression. I started looking into I/P only after 9/11 because Al-Qaeda put it up as one of the reasons for being against America. It seems to me that I/P was a problem created because the Europeans and Russians did not want Jews in "their" nations and so they made a place for them in the Middle East which began this mess---and this doesn't surprise me since we Easterners have been clearing up the mess left by the colonial legacy as well.......

But....
I/P in the West is often translated as Jews against Muslims---My understanding is that this is Isreali (Jews) against Palestinian (Muslims AND Christians.)
.....here is some info about Palestinian Christians (about 1% of the population) who are suffering alongside their Palestinian Muslim brothers.....

"Palestinian Christians belong to several traditional communities of faith, communities that can be grouped into four broad categories. The first are the traditions of the Eastern Orthodox churches. These would include the Greek Orthodox communities, claiming a continuous presence in the Holy Land since the times of the apostles. The second group is made of up what is sometimes referred to as the “Oriental” Orthodox churches, such as the Syrian, Coptic, and Armenian Orthodox communities. A third category consists of those churches belonging to the Catholic family of churches. In addition to Roman Catholic communities, referred to in the Middle East as the “Latin” church, one finds “Eastern Catholic” or “Eastern Rite Catholic” churches. These churches, though in communion with Rome and recognizing the authority of the pope, have maintained their own distinctive liturgy and traditions. Members of such communities as Greek Catholic or Syrian Catholic outnumber the number of “Latin” Catholics in Palestine and have a long history of involvement in the Palestinian struggle for justice. Finally, there are various Protestant communities, including not only Anglican and Lutheran churches, present since the nineteenth century, but also independent evangelical churches, including Baptist, Pentecostal, and more.
Today in Palestine, Christianity is experiencing what many would consider a crisis. This is not due to the growth of so-called Islamic fundamentalism or the persecution of “believers” by their Muslim neighbors, misrepresentations that are unfortunately used to distract from the realities of occupation. Instead, the plight of the Palestinian Christian is very much connected to that of the Palestinian Muslim in that both, whether in the Occupied Territories or inside Israeli itself, are experiencing daily injustices at the hands of oppressive and discriminatory policies imposed on them by the Israeli government.

Palestinian Christians, like their Muslim brothers and sisters, have experienced a long history of dispossession and have not been immune to Israeli policies of occupation and discrimination. If anything, they have felt more strongly the feelings of forsakenness, knowing full well that many Christians in North America and Europe support without question the state of Israel in its oppression of their people. Daily experiences of humiliation at checkpoints, of land confiscation to make way for the separation barrier, the illegal occupation and colonization of Palestinian territory, lack of mobility and access to basic services, unemployment, poverty, and no sense of hope for a better future for their children have all contributed to this growing emigration of Palestinian Christians from the historical land of Palestine.

Like their Muslim neighbors, who are prevented by checkpoints and roadblocks from making pilgrimage to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Christians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are denied basic religious freedoms, routinely prohibited from traveling very short distances to worship in one of the most holy sites in Christianity — the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the Old City of Jerusalem, where the church commemorates Jesus’ crucifixion, burial, and resurrection from the dead."

from
http://electronicintifada.net/conten...ossession/6280

I believe my religion calls for me to be Just, Compassionate and Merciful. In the case of I/P situation, there are deep wounds on both peoples of Israel and Palestine. No solution is possible unless these deep wounds are healed and IMO, healing may be possible by the application of Justice tempered with Compassion and Mercy. This approach is called Restorative Justice and it focuses on reconciliation rather than retribution.