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  • #31
    So, do you hold their hands and sing Kum Bah Yah BEFORE of AFTER you destroy their Churches?

    Source: WashingtonTimes.com

    On March 12, Sheik Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, declared that it is “necessary to destroy all the churches of the region.” The ruling came in response to a query from a Kuwaiti delegation over proposed legislation to prevent construction of churches in the emirate. The mufti based his decision on a story that on his deathbed, Muhammad declared, “There are not to be two religions in the [Arabian] Peninsula.” This passage has long been used to justify intolerance in the kingdom. Churches have always been banned in Saudi Arabia, and until recently Jews were not even allowed in the country. Those wishing to worship in the manner of their choosing must do so hidden away in private, and even then the morality police have been known to show up unexpectedly and halt proceedings.

    This is not a small-time radical imam trying to stir up his followers with fiery hate speech. This was a considered, deliberate and specific ruling from one of the most important leaders in the Muslim world. It does not just create a religious obligation for those over whom the mufti has direct authority; it is also a signal to others in the Muslim world that destroying churches is not only permitted but mandatory.

    Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz38CQWcr00
    Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

    © Copyright Original Source

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      I think that it is important for people of peace to unite in solidarity with each other and joining hands in various ways is good. I believe that the vast majority of human beings are good, decent, tolerant, generous, peaceful people.

      I am ignorant of religions other than my own so I am not in a position to fault anyone else.......but........

      The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia----did not exist until recently---1932----so it is irrelevant for most of Islamic history. Its domestic policies, foreign policies, religious ideology, politics etc, are of concern only to its own citizens----other Muslim-Majority countries have their own geo-political and socio-economic concerns.

      Ideology of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia---The kingdom was formed in alliance with the followers of Abdal Wahab who formulated a "Purist" Brand of Islam

      .......continued.........

      Comment


      • #33
        my apologies, I was interrupted.

        Ideology of Saudi Arabia---is based on the ideas of Abdal Wahab and is generally referred to as "Wahabism". It was developed in the 18th century. In the West it is conflated with (Christian) fundamentalism but it is actually different. Another term used to understand this ideology is "Purist" because the proponents want to "go back" to a mythical Utopian time when Islam was supposedly "Pure". Most of these movements began as anti-colonial.

        Mufti/Grand Mufti----is an office created in the 16th Century by the Ottomans (and later used by colonialists) as a bridge between the religious communities and the bureaucracy/government. The position can be for an individual or group (In the West some Muslim organizations seem to be taking up the unofficial position of serving as go-betweens for their communities and government.)

        Leader of the Muslim World---Firstly, there is no such thing as "Muslim World". The term Muslims use for a loose grouping of the global Muslim population is "Ummah" (community). Secondly, there is no official "leader" of the global Muslim community or Ummah.

        A ruling or Fatwa---Because there is no central authority/leadership, Guidance is provided by scholars...(like Rabbi's in Judaism). Scholars can give a legal opinion (fatwa) these are not universally "mandatory" nor a "religious obligation". Those who follow a particular scholar from a particular school of Sharia can follow the fatwa or ruling. (There are 5 major schools of Sharia---and there may be minor schools too)

        Sharia---traditionally, "Law" has been understood as a balancing force to government. In other words, "law" stands for the people against the excess or injustice of the government. Therefore, scholars who are perceived to be mouthpieces for the government tend to have less credibility than those who are perceived as independent. Thus, opinions of Saudi Mufti's viewed as parroting Saudi propaganda is not going to be high on the list for other Muslim-Majority countries.

        Minority religions in Saudi Arabia---All minority religions cannot be practiced officially. This is a particular domestic policy of Saudi Arabia and does not apply to other Muslim-Majority countries. They formulate their own domestic policies for their own geo-political situation.
        (IMO, intolerance is increasing globally and in all religions and ideologies)

        Stories of the Prophet(pbuh)---There are many stories about the Prophet(pbuh) some are factual some are not. Muslim scholars have attempted to classify ahadith (sayings of the Prophet) into categories that group them into degrees of authenticity. Usually the hadith come with context and this is necessary because hadith collections have contradicting hadith which can be clarified by understanding context.
        The Quranic worldview is one of plurality....(Quran is NOT considered as saying of the Prophet).

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          You know, Siam, I've yet to see you say anything positive in this thread about the Jews in Israel, or attempt to sympathize with the attrocities committed against them by the terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            I think that it is important for people of peace to unite in solidarity with each other and joining hands in various ways is good.
            Well, yeah, but you want me to hold hands with you while your brothers in the faith saw the heads off of MY brothers in the faith.

            Your religion is vile, confused and blood thirsty.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              Minority religions in Saudi Arabia---All minority religions cannot be practiced officially. This is a particular domestic policy of Saudi Arabia and does not apply to other Muslim-Majority countries.
              Somehow I take no comfort from the fact that Christian and Jewish congregations can exist in SOME Muslim areas, while Muslims are persecuting and killing Christians and Jews by the thousands elsewhere. It would seem to me to be simply "a matter of time".
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Ramadamadingdong.
                Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                -Thomas Aquinas

                I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                -Hernando Cortez

                What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Well, yeah, but you want me to hold hands with you while your brothers in the faith saw the heads off of MY brothers in the faith.

                  Your religion is vile, confused and blood thirsty.
                  Well, when you have verses like this one in the Quran.

                  When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray. S. 47:4 Arberry

                  It's not hard to see where ISIS gets their ideas.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Well, when you have verses like this one in the Quran.

                    When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray. S. 47:4 Arberry

                    It's not hard to see where ISIS gets their ideas.
                    Makes me wanna hold hands with Siam.



                    NOT!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Anyone can "spin" human suffering into whatever agenda they wish---for example---

                      Iraq death toll---500,000 plus (2003-2011) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4102855.html
                      can be spun into ----Americans kill half a million Muslims in Middle East

                      or

                      American-Phillipine War (1899-1902) fromm 200,000 to 1 million plus dead. Conducted under the (crazy) ideology of "Benevolent Assimilation" which is explained here---
                      http://opmanong.ssc.hawaii.edu/filipino/benevolent.html

                      "At the turn of the century, the economy of the United States was growing by leaps and bounds. American business interests favored the overseas expansion of the U.S. market and were eyeing China which was at this time being partitioned into spheres of influence by Western powers. Many U.S. leaders viewed the Philippines as a possible colony and base from which U.S. claims on China could be launched. While economic interest was preeminent, many Americans were also imbued with a "civilizing" zeal. White Man’s burden was often cited to justify U.S. annexation of the Philippines. In his Benevolent Assimilation Proclamation, U.S. President William McKinley argued that the Americans must educate, civilize, and uplift the conditions of the Filipinos. This self-righteous ideology, partly due to ignorance of the history of the Filipinos, was conveniently used by the Americans to rationalize their actions throughout the colonial period. The Filipinos had to be guided to "maturity" and "enlightenment" so that they may reap the fruits of American "tutelage" and "beneficence." To effect this "mission and vision," the United States must subdue any form of Filipino resistance, after all they were deemed "ignorant, uneducated, and uncivilized."

                      or

                      Vietnam War ---1 million plus dead because Americans wanted to IMPOSE "democracy"

                      .....so.....should the rest of the world go to war with America?......or is there a better way?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        the better way---http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=78906

                        The Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue has released its annual Ramadan message to the world Muslims, calling for genuine fraternity between followers of the two faiths to promote mutual respect and friendship.
                        “Christians and Muslims are brothers and sisters in the one human family, created by the One God,” the message, released by the president and secretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, was quoted by Catholic World News. “We thank the Almighty for what we have in common, while remaining aware of our differences,” they continued. “We perceive the importance of promoting a fruitful dialogue built upon mutual respect and friendship. Inspired by our shared values and strengthened by our sentiments of genuine fraternity, we are called to work together for justice, peace and respect for the rights and dignity of every person.”
                        Urging Muslims to build bridges of peace, the message said that such a friendship would promote reconciliation and end tensions and conflicts. “May our friendship inspire us always to cooperate in facing these many challenges with wisdom and prudence,” it says. “In this way we will help to diminish tension and conflict, and advance the common good. We will also demonstrate that religions can be a source of harmony for the benefit of society as a whole.” Similar message is issued annually by the Vatican at the end of the Muslims’ holy fasting month of Ramadan. Last year’s message was signed by Pope Francis personally.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Surah 47 verse 4. (translation Yusuf Ali)

                          "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

                          a) smite at their necks---The armies of the 7th century wore armor which included the head and torso area and they fought with swords (and such)---therefore anyone advising a soldier to "smite them on their heads" would be simply idiotic.
                          The People of Medina were being attacked by the Meccan Army during this period.

                          b) generosity or ransom---(amnesty) release of prisoners without conditions or release of prisoners with conditions.

                          c) test you---(defensive) war is a test of human will---will we choose hate or will we choose justice. Often times battles become most ugly towards the end when the loosing side becomes desperate or the winning side wants revenge (for example---Kamikaze pilots of Japan and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (that had a death toll of about 150,000---conservative estimate))

                          Surah 5 verse 8

                          "oh you who believe, be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Surah 47 verse 4. (translation Yusuf Ali)

                            "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

                            a) smite at their necks---The armies of the 7th century wore armor which included the head and torso area and they fought with swords (and such)---therefore anyone advising a soldier to "smite them on their heads" would be simply idiotic.
                            The People of Medina were being attacked by the Meccan Army during this period.
                            More likely this has to do with Mohammed's tradition of beheading his enemies. He did other things too, always quite violent as well. There are similar verses "revealed" well after the Meccans had been defeated.

                            b) generosity or ransom---(amnesty) release of prisoners without conditions or release of prisoners with conditions.
                            Yeah, only when they couldn't get a decent price, or use them as slaves. Even then they had to convert or die.

                            c) test you---(defensive) war is a test of human will---will we choose hate or will we choose justice. Often times battles become most ugly towards the end when the loosing side becomes desperate or the winning side wants revenge (for example---Kamikaze pilots of Japan and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (that had a death toll of about 150,000---conservative estimate))
                            Or perhaps when Mohammed was on his bloodthirsty conquests? Like how he wants all people dead other than Muslims?

                            Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29

                            Surah 5 verse 8

                            "oh you who believe, be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do."
                            Yes, and Islamic "justice" is nothing close to what most people understand justice to mean. Given that "persecution is worse than slaughter".

                            Source: Answering Islam

                            [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know. [2.217] They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever—these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. [2.218] Surely those who believed and those who fled (their home) and strove hard in the way of Allah these hope for the mercy of Allah and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran..._passages.html

                            I would certainly rather be persecuted, than slaughter people, wouldn't you?

                            Then there's the fact that historically, all peaceful verses in the Quran have been abrogated.

                            Source: Answering Islam

                            Surah 9:5

                            Ibn Juzayy:

                            (Then when the sacred months are over) i.e. the four months designated for them. Those who say that they are Shawwal, Dhu’l-Qa’da, Dhu’l-Hijja and al-Muharram, says that they are the well-known Sacred Months - with the addition of Shawwal and omission of Rajab. They are called "sacred" because the majority dominates in an Arabic phrase. Those who say that they last until Rab' ath-Thani calls them sacred because of their inviolability and because fighting in them was forbidden.

                            (kill the mushrikun wherever you find them) ABROGATING EVERY PEACE TREATY IN THE QUR’AN. It is said that it abrogates, "by setting them free or ransom." (47:4) It is also said that it is abrogated by it and so setting them free and ransom are permitted. (seize them) means to capture, and the one taken is the captive.

                            (If they make tawba) after disbelief. Then He connects belief to the prayer and zakat. That is an indication that one should fight anyone WHO ABANDONS THE PRAYER AND ZAKAT as Abu Bakr as-Siddiq did. The ayat encompassed the meaning of the Prophet’s words, "I am commanded to fight people until they say, 'There is no god but Allah and establish the prayer and pay the zakat." (let them go on their way) granting them security.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamo..._tolerance.htm

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              You know, Siam, I've yet to see you say anything positive in this thread about the Jews in Israel, or attempt to sympathize with the atrocities committed against them by the terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank.


                              Now can you see it better?
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Anyone can "spin" human suffering into whatever agenda they wish
                                How many of those atrocities were done while screaming "God is GREAT!"

                                Your religion is a sham. Peace, in Islam, is a lie -- hate reigns supreme.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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