Episcopal Church

[Spiritus Naturae]

I am in need of some assistance...are there any members of the Episcopal Chruch on TWeb? My mother is English and was brought up in the Church of England, the Anglican Church of which the Episcopalian Church in the states is the equivalent...I think. My mother is aging and in a 'bad way' faith wise. I am wanting to encourage her to attend church, but she will not go to church where I fellowship so I figured I could go with her to the Episcopal Church just a block from her home and get her 'plugged' in to that community of believers.

Can someone fill me in with their first hand experience of the Episcopalian Church and its statement of belief? I don't feel I'd get the same info from a "Google" search.

[markporter]

Don't know about the episcopal church, but if you want to know about anglicans here in the UK I can tell you a bit

[Spiritus Naturae]

Don't know about the episcopal church, but if you want to know about anglicans here in the UK I can tell you a bit

Tell it, brother! I know a bit from my 'mums' tales of the 'motherland'. But that was her experience in the '30s, 40s and 50s.

[markporter]

OK, well from its historic routes the Anglican church here in the UK is a very broad church encompassing a very diverse range of beliefs and practices, ranging from high churches with all the incense, sung liturgy, plainchant etc. to much freer, charismatic churches who may not bother with the liturgy so much, but still use it as a framework some of the time, especially around communion. I think that soul survivor may be anglicans, but I'm not sure. There are also a huge range of beliefs amongst the clergy, from extremely liberal to extremely evangelical, from charismatic to cessationist, from calvinist to OVT, you really can't just lump the whole church together...

What do I love about the anglican church? I love this broad range of beliefs, I love the structures of authority which are in place, I love having the liturgy available when you need it. I think that there is a great deal of wisdom within the church, and its heritage.

I don't know what the official beliefs are - we have a couple of the creeds in our liturgy somewhere, but I'm not sure to what degree one has to affirm them, I seem to recall rumours about atheist clergy in some diocese, although I really don't know how that works.

Hope that helps. To be honest it depends greatly on the individual church, just being anglican doesn't really say a huge deal about what you can expect to find when you walk through the doors.

[Jezz]

OK, well from its historic routes the Anglican church here in the UK is a very broad church encompassing a very diverse range of beliefs and practices, ranging from high churches with all the incense, sung liturgy, plainchant etc. to much freer, charismatic churches who may not bother with the liturgy so much, but still use it as a framework some of the time, especially around communion. I think that soul survivor may be anglicans, but I'm not sure. There are also a huge range of beliefs amongst the clergy, from extremely liberal to extremely evangelical, from charismatic to cessationist, from calvinist to OVT, you really can't just lump the whole church together...

What do I love about the anglican church? I love this broad range of beliefs, I love the structures of authority which are in place, I love having the liturgy available when you need it. I think that there is a great deal of wisdom within the church, and its heritage.

I think that this biggest positive of the Anglican church is also its biggest downfall. If your range of beliefs is too broad, then there is little to actually unite you. I don't like the excessive liberalism that has crept into the Episcopalian church.

I don't know what the official beliefs are - we have a couple of the creeds in our liturgy somewhere, but I'm not sure to what degree one has to affirm them, I seem to recall rumours about atheist clergy in some diocese, although I really don't know how that works.

Yeah, I don't really get that either. I don't see the point in having atheist clergy. I was under the impression that the official statement of faith (the 39 Articles) required that people uphold the 3 creeds, the Trinity, and the Bible as the word of God.

[Spiritus Naturae]

Thanks for the link, Jezz. Most helpful...

[Spiritus Naturae]

C'mon, there's gotta be at least a handful of Episcopal Church goers here on TWeb...?

Anyone, anyone...?

[elysian]

I wish I could be of more help. I'm Lutheran and we share much in common with Anglicans/Episcopalians, but I am not first hand familiar with the Anglican tradition.

The church your mother is likely familiar with and is looking for is not the Episcopal church most Americans are familiar with. Many (though most certainly not all) Episcopal churches have become incredibly liberal and informal and infiltrated with New Age nonsense and political correctness. We have quite a few new members at my church who were Episcopal and according to their descriptions there were things going on within the Episcopal church that went beyond the boundaries of Christian liberty.

If her upbringing was conservative and traditional she would likely be looking for the much more conservative Episcopal Missionary Church which is a traditional Anglican church that observes the high church rites, only they are within the US. I know you didn't want "information by link" but the reason I know about it is there is an Episcopal Missionary Church not far from where I live. There is a search engine on the website also, perhaps there is one close to you that your Mom can investigate for herself.

[Spiritus Naturae]

I wish I could be of more help. I'm Lutheran and we share much in common with Anglicans/Episcopalians, but I am not first hand familiar with the Anglican tradition.

The church your mother is likely familiar with and is looking for is not the Episcopal church most Americans are familiar with. Many (though most certainly not all) Episcopal churches have become incredibly liberal and informal and infiltrated with New Age nonsense and political correctness. We have quite a few new members at my church who were Episcopal and according to their descriptions there were things going on within the Episcopal church that went beyond the boundaries of Christian liberty.

If her upbringing was conservative and traditional she would likely be looking for the much more conservative Episcopal Missionary Church which is a traditional Anglican church that observes the high church rites, only they are within the US. I know you didn't want "information by link" but the reason I know about it is there is an Episcopal Missionary Church not far from where I live. There is a search engine on the website also, perhaps there is one close to you that your Mom can investigate for herself.

Thanks, Elysian! You're a sweetheart. She would definitely go for the more conservative model, as I imagine it is closer in idea to the church of her childhood.

Jonathan

[Amazing Rando]

I don't know much about Episcopalianism except all the bad news about the theological liberalism that has crept into the church as of late - see Spong, Bishop Robinson, etc. But I also know for a fact that not all Episcopal churches are so heretical. You'll find quite a few that are conservative as well- it really varies from congregation to congregation, just as it does in any denomination. I'd check out the particular church, not just the official denomination stuff.

[nomad]

i went to an amia church for a while (and enjoyed it; my wife didn't, so we're not there anymore); a friend has been in the CEC for a long time, and is now a member of an ecusa church. the short version is like the above said, the episcopal church is very varied. (in the US and england particularly; it is much more conservative overseas, and actually overall there are probably more anglicans in the third world than in the first).

first of all, even in modern episcopal churches, there is often a tension between 'high churchers' (i guess) who like the older liturgy how it is, and 'episco-evangelicals' who feel more at home with anglican beliefs (i guess) but want more modern evangelical service forms. so, if she's used to the liturgy, you'll want a church that holds closer to the more traditional liturgies. some churches have different services in different forms, a more modern one. most of the differences will probably be relatively minor, such as when and what style of music is performed, whether they use incense or not, things like that that seem minor to me but matter a lot to people who prefer that stuff.

from a theological perspective, there are some very good episcopal churches. there are some very bad episcopal churches. the episcopal church has gotten a very bad rap for liberalism, and it's probably deserved, but it's by no means the entire church. first of all, some churches have left ECUSA (episcopal church in the USA) and formed other groups which report to the archbishop of canterbury via some other route. The AMiA is one example; it stands for 'Anglican Mission in America', and instead of reporting to the archbishop of the US, they report to the archbishop of rwanda or singapore (or both, might be wrong but it's definitely third world). Others have left altogether but still call themselves 'episcopal'; the CEC is an example (Charismatic Episcopal church), which has members in the US and the UK but many more in the third world. Both of these are more conservative, but still decidedly anglican in flavor.

However, even within the ECUSA, which is the organization of churches reporting to the archbishop of the US, there is not uniformity. There are extremely liberal examples like spong who don't belong in the church (imho). However, there are also a great many conservative parishes. Even with the recent row over the gay bishop, there was a smaller row in his parish as one of the priests under him preached against homosexuality and there was a power struggle in that church. This was on his own turf! It seems to be mostly regional though, and follow the overall currents in the US; in the SF Bay Area, for example, it is mostly liberal and supported the ordination of gay bishops (the AMiA church left for this reason, and according to them were really the only conservative congregation in the diocese), whereas in Jacksonville (where my friend is a member) they are much more conservative; nearly the entire diocese withheld tithes during the row over the gay bishop. as you can probably tell, i fall on the conservative side, and iirc you would probably as well, but either way the church's view on the gay ordination issue is a good watermark to see whether the church tends liberal or conservative to see whether it would work for you.

there are a few organizations as well of 'protesting' churches that are still in ecusa; i thought about six of them just joined, i can't remember the organization's name though, and can't find it via google. amia was one of them. if the church is a member of one of these organizations, it is more likely to be conservative theologically. note that many of the more conservative theologically are more progressive liturgically, so it may not be easy to find out whose liturgy has not adapted some 'evangelicalism' in it (which she might not like) and still hold a theology you would agree with.

my experiences are limited, but from talking to my amia pastor and other friends, that's what i got from it.

oh, and as a side note, there are quite a few defenses from the anglican church that claim the church is as old as the eastern and roman patriarchal systems. england (technically the welsh) was very possibly christian from a very early time (within 50 years of jesus' death), and claim the origin of their churches from joseph of arimathea. andrew gray claims that one of the early popes (linus) was actually of welsh descent.

[keith]

Ho hum. This has made interesting reading. As an Anglican in England perhaps I can offer a view from this side of the pond. It is true here that there is a great variety of worship styles, something for everyone if you know where to look. Also there is a wide range of beliefs (perhaps not such a good thing). Most dioceses here include a range of churches catholic, evangelical, liberal charismatic and seem to get along (at least publicly) in a "you do your thing and I'll do mine" kind of way.

The only thing you can be sure of is that they share the same structure ie episcopacy and anyone who did not want that has left over the centuries ie presbyterian, congregationalists, etc.

If you found yourself in an unfamiliar place and wanted to know if there was a church that suited you then the most practical choice would be word of mouth or just checking out a service or two to find what fits. As for the origins of the church there were christians here in the Roman era both as traders and soldiers and the first martyr, St Alban was in fact a soldier. The decision to formally adopt the Catholic liturgy and link up with Rome came later, in the seventh century, Synod of Whitby. Yes there was also an English Pope, Nicholas Breakspeare. I cannot remeber his dates 13th century ? That is bad, he is from the neighbouring village to where I live so I really ought to know that.

The Anglican church has followed wherever English people have gone in the world but the largest communities are now in Africa. The Anglican church in Nigeria for example has 19 million active members which is more than the congregations of the USA and England put together to give some perspective.

They are now sending missionaries to England (no, I am not joking). As to the future the communion may not survive in its present form given the tensions over doctrine, morality etc. Perhaps we will end up as a looser federation more like the Lutheran churches?

i went to an amia church for a while (and enjoyed it; my wife didn't, so we're not there anymore); a friend has been in the CEC for a long time, and is now a member of an ecusa church. the short version is like the above said, the episcopal church is very varied. (in the US and england particularly; it is much more conservative overseas, and actually overall there are probably more anglicans in the third world than in the first).

first of all, even in modern episcopal churches, there is often a tension between 'high churchers' (i guess) who like the older liturgy how it is, and 'episco-evangelicals' who feel more at home with anglican beliefs (i guess) but want more modern evangelical service forms. so, if she's used to the liturgy, you'll want a church that holds closer to the more traditional liturgies. some churches have different services in different forms, a more modern one. most of the differences will probably be relatively minor, such as when and what style of music is performed, whether they use incense or not, things like that that seem minor to me but matter a lot to people who prefer that stuff.

from a theological perspective, there are some very good episcopal churches. there are some very bad episcopal churches. the episcopal church has gotten a very bad rap for liberalism, and it's probably deserved, but it's by no means the entire church. first of all, some churches have left ECUSA (episcopal church in the USA) and formed other groups which report to the archbishop of canterbury via some other route. The AMiA is one example; it stands for 'Anglican Mission in America', and instead of reporting to the archbishop of the US, they report to the archbishop of rwanda or singapore (or both, might be wrong but it's definitely third world). Others have left altogether but still call themselves 'episcopal'; the CEC is an example (Charismatic Episcopal church), which has members in the US and the UK but many more in the third world. Both of these are more conservative, but still decidedly anglican in flavor.

However, even within the ECUSA, which is the organization of churches reporting to the archbishop of the US, there is not uniformity. There are extremely liberal examples like spong who don't belong in the church (imho). However, there are also a great many conservative parishes. Even with the recent row over the gay bishop, there was a smaller row in his parish as one of the priests under him preached against homosexuality and there was a power struggle in that church. This was on his own turf! It seems to be mostly regional though, and follow the overall currents in the US; in the SF Bay Area, for example, it is mostly liberal and supported the ordination of gay bishops (the AMiA church left for this reason, and according to them were really the only conservative congregation in the diocese), whereas in Jacksonville (where my friend is a member) they are much more conservative; nearly the entire diocese withheld tithes during the row over the gay bishop. as you can probably tell, i fall on the conservative side, and iirc you would probably as well, but either way the church's view on the gay ordination issue is a good watermark to see whether the church tends liberal or conservative to see whether it would work for you.

there are a few organizations as well of 'protesting' churches that are still in ecusa; i thought about six of them just joined, i can't remember the organization's name though, and can't find it via google. amia was one of them. if the church is a member of one of these organizations, it is more likely to be conservative theologically. note that many of the more conservative theologically are more progressive liturgically, so it may not be easy to find out whose liturgy has not adapted some 'evangelicalism' in it (which she might not like) and still hold a theology you would agree with.

my experiences are limited, but from talking to my amia pastor and other friends, that's what i got from it.

oh, and as a side note, there are quite a few defenses from the anglican church that claim the church is as old as the eastern and roman patriarchal systems. england (technically the welsh) was very possibly christian from a very early time (within 50 years of jesus' death), and claim the origin of their churches from joseph of arimathea. andrew gray claims that one of the early popes (linus) was actually of welsh descent.

[Rusty T]

Uhm, if she likes tradition, conservatism, and spirituality all rolled into one - may I suggest finding a listing of your local Orthodox Churches? You may even find one that is Western Rite - which would be more familiar to your mother.

rusty

[Krusader]

I am in need of some assistance...are there any members of the Episcopal Chruch on TWeb? My mother is English and was brought up in the Church of England, the Anglican Church of which the Episcopalian Church in the states is the equivalent...I think. My mother is aging and in a 'bad way' faith wise. I am wanting to encourage her to attend church, but she will not go to church where I fellowship so I figured I could go with her to the Episcopal Church just a block from her home and get her 'plugged' in to that community of believers.

Can someone fill me in with their first hand experience of the Episcopalian Church and its statement of belief? I don't feel I'd get the same info from a "Google" search.

I was an Episcopalian for 49 years. The Church is apostate at the present time, with some few faithful Christians remaining. Do your mother a favor and DON't take her to an Episcopal Church until you have gone there yourself and checked it out. Only a very few preach the Gospel.