Originally posted by klaus54
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Literal Genesis 1:3
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow does that follow? Whether one believes that a literal understanding is contrary to Science or not, in what sense is a literal reading "interpreting it anachronistically" or with a "modern mindset?" Do you really believe that a Henry Morris doesn't understand the back ground of the Hebrew culture of that time? I know he is degreed in Engineering but from what I remember his study bible was rather well researched when it came to the culture and language of the time.
Second, what do you mean by "literal"? YECs (e.g. Henry Morris) and Day-Age OECs (e.g. Hugh Ross) both claim that they are reading the text in a "literal" manner, but they have two very different interpretations. And as Klaus has pointed out, the "ANE cosmology" interpretation of the text (e.g. Seely, Lamoureux) is arguably the most literal reading of all, but it is yet a third interpretation."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostGlobal markers of days to whom?
K54
P.S. "Evening to morning" (and I suppose "morning" to "evening" as well.) Another indication of the ANE understanding of "Day".
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Originally posted by Kbertsche View PostFirst, I think that most YECs simply ignore the ancient near eastern (ANE) background of the biblical text, whether they understand the ancient culture and language or not. They tend to ask modern questions of the ancient text and to view it in modern categories, with no effort to understand how the original author and audience would have understood it. For example, they automatically assume the text is dealing with the physical, material origins of the cosmos in a quasi-mechanistic manner. But scholars such as John Walton have argued that the ancients were much more concerned with functional rather than material origins, and that the text is focused more on this.
Second, what do you mean by "literal"? YECs (e.g. Henry Morris) and Day-Age OECs (e.g. Hugh Ross) both claim that they are reading the text in a "literal" manner, but they have two very different interpretations. And as Klaus has pointed out, the "ANE cosmology" interpretation of the text (e.g. Seely, Lamoureux) is arguably the most literal reading of all, but it is yet a third interpretation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by klaus54 View PostWell, you're the literalist. So I mean "Days" to all humans through all generations and cultures.
K54
P.S. "Evening to morning" (and I suppose "morning" to "evening" as well.) Another indication of the ANE understanding of "Day".
I assume by eretz you mean land or earth - so why would a literal reading lead necessarily to a flat earth conclusion? And I still don't understand what you mean by a global markers of days - that the Genesis account could not be speaking of a 24 hour period? If so why not?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostFor instance, I listened to a debate between Dr. Jason Lisle and Dr. Hugh Ross, and Dr. Lisle was not the least bit ignorant of background, culture or language. I actually thought he did a better job than Ross. My point is you paint with a broad brush and by default that YECs are the ones that necessarily misunderstand the texts.
K54
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, what did you mean by this: Oh, and an ANE "literal" reading of the first Genesis story would come up with a flat eretz (else evening and morning would not be global markers of days).
I assume by eretz you mean land or earth - so why would a literal reading lead necessarily to a flat earth conclusion? And I still don't understand what you mean by a global markers of days - that the Genesis account could not be speaking of a 24 hour period? If so why not?
1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.
2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.
Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me
You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.
After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.
K54
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Originally posted by seer View PostFor instance, I listened to a debate between Dr. Jason Lisle and Dr. Hugh Ross, and Dr. Lisle was not the least bit ignorant of background, culture or language. I actually thought he did a better job than Ross. My point is you paint with a broad brush and by default that YECs are the ones that necessarily misunderstand the texts.
K54
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Originally posted by klaus54 View PostWell, two reasons at least.
1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.
2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.
Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me
You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.
After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.
K54The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by klaus54 View PostWell, two reasons at least.
1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.
2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.
Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me
You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.
After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.
K54
"Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.
What do you mean by this? Why would it require a flat earth? If morning and evening is merely pointing to a 24 hour period how do we get to a flat earth out of that?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by klaus54 View PostWhat was Dr. Lisle's interpretation (sorry, reading) of "Let there be light" that would have the same physical meaning to a brilliant astrophysicist as well as an ANE Hebrew?
K54Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo light would not mean light to the ancient Hebrew? What would it mean?
And how can "light" and "darkness" be separated unless they were together at one time?
Literal physical unambiguous answers only please...
K54
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Originally posted by seer View PostOne thing at a time Homer:
"Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.
What do you mean by this? Why would it require a flat earth? If morning and evening is merely pointing to a 24 hour period how do we get to a flat earth out of that?
On a flat Earth, Sol rises over one horizon and it's morning all over. When Sol sets it's evening all over. Nothing could be more simple nor more literal.
K54
P.S. Oh, and why does the Day start with evening? Isn't that ANE tradition, still held by Hebrews and Arabs today?
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Originally posted by klaus54 View PostYou first -- what is "light" in your YEC reading?
And how can "light" and "darkness" be separated unless they were together at one time?
Literal physical unambiguous answers only please...
K54Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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