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Literal Genesis 1:3

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  • #61
    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
    Are you a YEC literalist? If so, can you explain (oops! That would mean interpretation) of Ge 1:3?

    Oh, and an ANE "literal" reading of the first Genesis story would come up with a flat eretz (else evening and morning would not be global markers of days) and a solid dome (raqia) separating waters above from water below.

    That's what he means, Idiot!
    Global markers of days to whom?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      How does that follow? Whether one believes that a literal understanding is contrary to Science or not, in what sense is a literal reading "interpreting it anachronistically" or with a "modern mindset?" Do you really believe that a Henry Morris doesn't understand the back ground of the Hebrew culture of that time? I know he is degreed in Engineering but from what I remember his study bible was rather well researched when it came to the culture and language of the time.
      First, I think that most YECs simply ignore the ancient near eastern (ANE) background of the biblical text, whether they understand the ancient culture and language or not. They tend to ask modern questions of the ancient text and to view it in modern categories, with no effort to understand how the original author and audience would have understood it. For example, they automatically assume the text is dealing with the physical, material origins of the cosmos in a quasi-mechanistic manner. But scholars such as John Walton have argued that the ancients were much more concerned with functional rather than material origins, and that the text is focused more on this.

      Second, what do you mean by "literal"? YECs (e.g. Henry Morris) and Day-Age OECs (e.g. Hugh Ross) both claim that they are reading the text in a "literal" manner, but they have two very different interpretations. And as Klaus has pointed out, the "ANE cosmology" interpretation of the text (e.g. Seely, Lamoureux) is arguably the most literal reading of all, but it is yet a third interpretation.
      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Global markers of days to whom?
        Well, you're the literalist. So I mean "Days" to all humans through all generations and cultures.

        K54

        P.S. "Evening to morning" (and I suppose "morning" to "evening" as well.) Another indication of the ANE understanding of "Day".
        Last edited by klaus54; 07-23-2014, 03:27 PM. Reason: p.s.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
          First, I think that most YECs simply ignore the ancient near eastern (ANE) background of the biblical text, whether they understand the ancient culture and language or not. They tend to ask modern questions of the ancient text and to view it in modern categories, with no effort to understand how the original author and audience would have understood it. For example, they automatically assume the text is dealing with the physical, material origins of the cosmos in a quasi-mechanistic manner. But scholars such as John Walton have argued that the ancients were much more concerned with functional rather than material origins, and that the text is focused more on this.

          Second, what do you mean by "literal"? YECs (e.g. Henry Morris) and Day-Age OECs (e.g. Hugh Ross) both claim that they are reading the text in a "literal" manner, but they have two very different interpretations. And as Klaus has pointed out, the "ANE cosmology" interpretation of the text (e.g. Seely, Lamoureux) is arguably the most literal reading of all, but it is yet a third interpretation.
          For instance, I listened to a debate between Dr. Jason Lisle and Dr. Hugh Ross, and Dr. Lisle was not the least bit ignorant of background, culture or language. I actually thought he did a better job than Ross. My point is you paint with a broad brush and by default that YECs are the ones that necessarily misunderstand the texts.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
            Well, you're the literalist. So I mean "Days" to all humans through all generations and cultures.

            K54

            P.S. "Evening to morning" (and I suppose "morning" to "evening" as well.) Another indication of the ANE understanding of "Day".
            No, what did you mean by this: Oh, and an ANE "literal" reading of the first Genesis story would come up with a flat eretz (else evening and morning would not be global markers of days).

            I assume by eretz you mean land or earth - so why would a literal reading lead necessarily to a flat earth conclusion? And I still don't understand what you mean by a global markers of days - that the Genesis account could not be speaking of a 24 hour period? If so why not?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              For instance, I listened to a debate between Dr. Jason Lisle and Dr. Hugh Ross, and Dr. Lisle was not the least bit ignorant of background, culture or language. I actually thought he did a better job than Ross. My point is you paint with a broad brush and by default that YECs are the ones that necessarily misunderstand the texts.
              What was Dr. Lisle's interpretation (sorry, reading) of "Let there be light" that would have the same physical meaning to a brilliant astrophysicist as well as an ANE Hebrew?

              K54

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                No, what did you mean by this: Oh, and an ANE "literal" reading of the first Genesis story would come up with a flat eretz (else evening and morning would not be global markers of days).

                I assume by eretz you mean land or earth - so why would a literal reading lead necessarily to a flat earth conclusion? And I still don't understand what you mean by a global markers of days - that the Genesis account could not be speaking of a 24 hour period? If so why not?
                Well, two reasons at least.

                1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.

                2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.

                Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me

                You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.

                After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.

                K54

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  For instance, I listened to a debate between Dr. Jason Lisle and Dr. Hugh Ross, and Dr. Lisle was not the least bit ignorant of background, culture or language. I actually thought he did a better job than Ross. My point is you paint with a broad brush and by default that YECs are the ones that necessarily misunderstand the texts.
                  The YECs are the ones who paint with a broad brush, assuming that their "reading" of the first Genesis story applies in a literal sense through the ages and wildly varying understandings of cosmology.

                  K54

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                    Well, two reasons at least.

                    1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.

                    2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.

                    Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me

                    You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.

                    After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.

                    K54
                    I am becoming fearful that you are like someone who demands from a reader of a poem its literal meaning.
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                      Well, two reasons at least.

                      1) Something called "raqia" (translated by St. Jerome) as "firmament" that separated the waters below from the waters above. The most "literal" reading of this something solid.

                      2) "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.

                      Can you do better? Is the "literal" processing part of your brain better than mine, since that's the obvious reading to me

                      You still haven't answer what "Let be light" means literally and unambiguously.

                      After that I'm going to ask you for a literal reading of separating light from darkness.

                      K54
                      One thing at a time Homer:

                      "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.

                      What do you mean by this? Why would it require a flat earth? If morning and evening is merely pointing to a 24 hour period how do we get to a flat earth out of that?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                        What was Dr. Lisle's interpretation (sorry, reading) of "Let there be light" that would have the same physical meaning to a brilliant astrophysicist as well as an ANE Hebrew?

                        K54
                        So light would not mean light to the ancient Hebrew? What would it mean?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                          I am becoming fearful that you are like someone who demands from a reader of a poem its literal meaning.
                          I'm already fearful that you have no clue what this thread is about.

                          K54

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So light would not mean light to the ancient Hebrew? What would it mean?
                            You first -- what is "light" in your YEC reading?

                            And how can "light" and "darkness" be separated unless they were together at one time?

                            Literal physical unambiguous answers only please...

                            K54

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              One thing at a time Homer:

                              "Evening" and "Morning" as global markers of days would require a mostly flat Earth.

                              What do you mean by this? Why would it require a flat earth? If morning and evening is merely pointing to a 24 hour period how do we get to a flat earth out of that?
                              Simple -- if the "days" in the first Genesis story are literally one rotation of a spherical Earth then it's going to be "evening" someplace and "morning" at someplace simultaneously. Unless you believe that Elohim is localized, which of course you don't, since that would heretical.

                              On a flat Earth, Sol rises over one horizon and it's morning all over. When Sol sets it's evening all over. Nothing could be more simple nor more literal.

                              K54

                              P.S. Oh, and why does the Day start with evening? Isn't that ANE tradition, still held by Hebrews and Arabs today?
                              Last edited by klaus54; 07-24-2014, 07:17 AM. Reason: p.s.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                                You first -- what is "light" in your YEC reading?

                                And how can "light" and "darkness" be separated unless they were together at one time?

                                Literal physical unambiguous answers only please...

                                K54
                                Again, stop bringing in more questions. Deal with one thing at a time. So what would the ancient Hebrews believe light to mean?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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