How many dispensations are in the Bible?

[Daywalker]

We all know that the term "dispensation" is in the Bible.
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Here is Stong's definition, it is from the Greek word "οἰκονομία"
oikonomia
oy-kon-om-ee'-ah
From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.

How many do you feel exist in the word of God?

Ofcourse, if you would like to state WHY you feel this way...you are free to do so

[AV1611]

There are a variety of opinions however I would have around six depending...

[Ted]

I would posit three administrations:
1. Prior to Moses. Blood sacrifices for sin, but no tabernacle.
2. Moses to Christ. Blood sacrifices in the tabernacle. (But note that there were still occasions on which sacrifices may have happened at distant locales.)
3. Christ (cross) and beyond. Jesus’ sacrifice replaces all others.

Common feature: Salvation is always by grace through faith (See Heb 11).

Note: There is only one dispensation if you look at how salvation was received.

Ted

[themuzicman]

Pre-fall, post-fall, post-resurrection.

Michael

[Terral]

Hi AV:

AV: How many dispensations are in the Bible?

To ensure that we are on the same page, let’s look at some of the definition from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words.

Dispensation

“oikonomia - primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul . . .

Dispensation

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."

A dispensation or ‘stewardship’ (Eph. 3:2) represents authority from God given to one slave over all the other slaves and His property. The first person to be given a stewardship in Scripture was Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Dispensation of Innocence. Adam and Eve broke the rules and the Lord God sent them out of the Garden and began the Dispensation of Conscience, under a new set of rules from Genesis 3. The Gentiles of the earth are still living under that dispensation today. (Rom. 2:14+15). Things progressed and the Nephilim (Gen. 6:4) were invading the Adamic race, and the Lord God separated Noah and began again through Shem, Japheth and Ham. Gen. 6:10. Again things progressed and the Lord God separated Abram and made a covenant with him, then Isaac and then Jacob (Israel). Then Moses was raised up and given a stewardship over Israel, as he brought them under Mosaic Law.

When John the Baptist appeared to Israel from the wilderness, there were only two active dispensations under God on this planet. He dealt with Jews under Mosaic Law (Rom. 2:17, 9:1-4) and everybody else was a Gentile without the Law (Rom. 2:14+15). John the Baptist then began to baptize members from the lost sheep of the house of Israel into a brand new Kingdom Dispensation through the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Christ came along after him and also preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23) and gathered more members to the assembly of believers He called His ‘church.’ Matt. 16:16-19, 18:17. John the Baptist referred to this group of believers as the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of the Bridegroom. All of this preaching was in fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy. People like Peter, John and James were members of the new assembly taken from Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24), while the Pharisees and Lawyers (Luke 7:30, 14:3) remained among those who did not obtain these things and were hardened.

Romans 11:7, 11+12

“What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . . I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!”

Even after the crucifixion, the Twelve continued to gather members to this Kingdom church through the ‘good news concerning the Kingdom of God.’ Acts 8:12. Peter is still seen preaching repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:28) just like John the Baptist from day one. Mark 1:4. However, Israel did not recognize John the Baptist as Elijah, and they crucified the Son of God (Matt. 17:12), as they would also continue rejecting the offering of the Kingdom of God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in Acts. Therefore, the Apostle Paul was raised up (Acts 9:15) and began a whole new ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) through the gospel of Christ’s shed blood.

Paul’s ‘Christ’s body’ (1Cor. 12:27) mystery ‘church’ (Eph. 5:32) was not seen by the OT Prophets and is a totally separate ‘dispensation’ from the Kingdom church based in Jerusalem. Paul is writing to the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12), while Peter, John and James are over the Prophetic ‘bride.’ The great meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15 / Gal. 2) is between the Kingdom church of Prophecy at Jerusalem and the Grace church of Mystery, under the stewardship of the Apostle Paul. This might lead one to believe that there are now four separate dispensations on this planet ‘under God,’ but this is simply not so. The Kingdom church under Peter became dormant, after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. They were literally ‘cut off’ (not beheaded, check the Greek; Rev. 20:4), as the Holy Spirit began working full time fashioning the Mystery ‘body of Christ,’ as He is still doing to this day.

There has been no more fulfillment of Prophecy, because that part of God’s program has been placed on the back burner, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom. 11:25). This is the time James refers to in Acts 15:14, as God is taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. Therefore, there has been only three major dispensations ‘under God’ on this planet for the past two thousand years; Jews under the Law, Gentiles without the Law, and the members of the body of Christ. The only thing stopping the fulfillment of Prophecy today is the Rapture of the Mystery church (1Thes. 4:17). At that moment the Holy Spirit will return to the waiting Elijah, and he shall go about restoring all things as Christ prophesied in Matthew 17:10+11.

Those are the three major dispensations ‘under God,’ but are there any others that we should know about? The ‘body of Christ’ is being fashioned, according to the ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3). There is also a lawless body being fashioned right along side, according to the ‘mystery of lawlessness.’ 2Thes. 2:7. These are the people who have believed false gospel messages and who go about deceiving others through the same wickedness that finds them under the power of the ‘deluding influence’ of 2Thes. 2:10-12 (11).

2Thessalonians 2:10-12

“ . . . and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God sends upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

Scripture reveals that there is also a ‘dispensation of lawlessness’ at work in our midst, and as we speak. Those under the power of the deluding influence believe themselves to be Christians, and serving Christ all the while. Satan has given them ‘religion’ in place of true Christianity which is walking by faith and not by sight (2Cor. 5:7). For every Spiritual value, component and expression there is also a spiritual counterfeit of the real thing. People under the spell of the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3+4) have been lulled to sleep in a happy slumber of religious bliss and harmony; having no idea that they are still standing in their sins! This is the spiritual ‘beast’ of the unholy 666 ‘man’ of Scripture. The Bible says that he having wisdom, he will understand that 666 is the number of a man. Rev. 13:18. How many have understanding of these words? Here is what Scripture teaches about the number of the unholy ‘man’:

Go back to 1Cor. 10:1-4 and recognize the truth that the body of Moses contains many members. Many understand already that the ‘body of Christ’ also has many members. Rom. 12:4+5, 1Cor. 12:12-14, 20, etc.. Those are two of the three witnesses of Matthew 17:1-6, where Elijah is the third witness representing those who never saw death. Who knows what that might be? The members of the body of Elijah are from among the angels who are also part of New Jerusalem, which Christ was showing to Peter, John and James. Elijah (spirit), Christ (blood) and Moses (water) are the three witnesses (1John 5:8) of the coming New Age beginning in Rev. 21:1+. They represent the 777 Heavenly Man who shall rule for the ages to come through all the seventh day members of their collective bodies. Those who believe Paul’s gospel today are being baptized (Rom. 6:3+4, Gal. 3:27) into the ‘body of Christ’ to become part of that ‘administration of the Mystery’ (Eph. 3:9) heavenly body. If you have developed that mental image, then we can use it to now gather a snapshot of our 666 unholy man. You can draw diagrams to see these things from reading this post:

http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=008509

Satan (spirit), the beast (antichrist / blood) and the false prophet (water) represent the heads of the unholy 666 man in power right now in the heavenly from members gathered during the ‘sixth’ day that ended in Genesis 2:3. That unholy heavenly man transitioned into power from the 555 heavenly man who ruled during the sixth day. They have been gathering power and strength through all the creative days since Genesis 1:2, which are contained in this current Age of Darkness. Each one of these ‘days’ has lasted for thousands and thousands of years. The evil powers of darkness (Eph. 6:12) have had the upper hand for a very long time, and they thought their scheme of evil and wickedness was going to continue forever. All of that came tumbling down when God tricked them into crucifying our Lord, as Christ’s sacrifice became the provision for our universe to become . . . unbroken. The body of the antichrist is gathering members left and right as we speak and is the size of Goliath the giant. The body of Christ is a remnant from all the denominations who have not added works to the Gospel of Christ’s shed blood. The ‘false prophet’ shall gather the members of his body by spreading of his false gospel during the coming restored kingdom of God on earth. The great battle at the end shall be between the members of all these collective bodies, until the Judgment of Rev. 20:1-15.

So, how many dispensations are there in the world today? Gentiles, Jews, body of Christ, body of antichrist. During the kingdom of God on earth there will be Gentiles, Jews, bride of Christ, body of false prophet. The bodies of Elijah and Satan are in the spirit, and the devil is not loosed until the very end. Rev. 20:7. Today when you look out into the cosmos into eternity, you see darkness and the twinkle of little stars. When all of this is done and we start the new age, the universe will be filled with brilliant light and the songs of the angels in harmony with creation.

In Christ,

Terral

[AV1611]

Hi Terral! I did not ask the question :-)

[Amazing Rando]

<Sarcasm>

You silly people! Don't you know that there are Twelve Dispensations? This chart says so! So there!

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

[AV1611]

I prefer Darby's take:

THE APOSTASY OF THE SUCCESSIVE DISPENSATIONS

by John Nelson Darby

Communion with God — communion with God in a new nature, being made, as the apostle teaches us, partakers of a divine nature, is both that in which eternal blessedness must have its spring, and the source of all true knowledge. Here God, through grace, can communicate with us in the intelligence of the same delights, and the communication of the same interests. The ultimate provision made for this is the incarnation; and the Lord instructs in grace (renewed in knowledge after the image of Him who created us) in all those elements of the knowledge of good and evil, by which the value and excellence and the divine provision of the Lord Jesus are apprehended and adequately esteemed, at least in principle and desire. We learn it humbly by the necessity of evil in us: but we learn it holily, because we know the extent of the evil only by the infiniteness of the good: so only indeed can it be known; so has God blessedly provided for the knowledge of it for good. Thus He knows it. Thus those that are made partakers of the divine nature know it in their measure. This, however, we have to learn in its details, in the various dispensations which led to or have followed the revelation of the incarnate Son in whom all the fulness was pleased to dwell — the obedient man, God manifested, the suffering Saviour, the exalted Righteous One; many, many principles brought out in the exhibition of weakness and apparent exhibitions of divine power, having no settled rule, but all finding their solution in the sufferings and revelation of God in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The detail of the history connected with these dispensations brings out many most interesting displays, both of the principles and patience of God's dealings with the evil and failure of man; and of the workings by which He formed faith on His own thus developed perfections.

But the dispensations themselves all declare some leading principle or interference of God, some condition in which He has placed man, principles which in themselves are everlastingly sanctioned of God, but in the course of those dispensations placed responsibly in the hands of man for the display and discovery of what he was, and the bringing in their infallible establishment in Him to whom the glory of them all rightly belonged.

It is not my intention to enter into any great detail, but to shew simply how, in every instance, there was total and immediate failure as regarded man, however the patience of God might tolerate and carry on by grace the dispensation in which man has thus failed in the outset; and further, that there is no instance of the restoration of a dispensation afforded us, though there might be partial revivals of it through faith.

The paradisaical state cannot properly perhaps be called a dispensation in this sense of the word; but as regards the universal failure of man, it is a most important instance. It is too plain, too sadly known, to require much proof in detail, important as shewing that no condition of man set him free from the prevailing art of the great adversary. When he was innocent and untainted, surrounded by every mercy, and at the head of all blessing, he fell immediately. The man not deceived but led astray, the woman deceived and in the transgression, and, though this has doubtless a higher reference, yet, describes the fact and the double character of error. As it was to be shewn here in principle, that man in nature could not stand, the first thing we read is of his fall, the first act consequent upon the responsibility in which he was placed, after his being set at the head of creation, and his wife given to him; in a word, after responsibilities were established, and his glory and blessing full. Corruption, disorder, violence, were the consequences of this, until the Lord destroyed the first world created (during the time of His patience an elect seed having been preserved in testimony and patience).

Here dispensations, properly speaking, begin. On the first, Noah, I shall be very brief: restraint and godliness should have characterised it — the government which would have repressed corruption and violence. But the first thing here found is the saved patriarch drunk, and his son shamefully mocking him, for which the curse justly descends upon him. This issued in idolatry; Joshua 24.

The first account after his call we have of faithful Abraham, which as a minuter circumstance I also pass briefly over, is Genesis 12: 13, "Say, I pray thee: thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee"; and plagues because of him in whom the families of the earth were to be blessed. As regards man, under the calling of grace, we find shameful failure.

The history of the children of Israel is one scene of "a stiffnecked and rebellious people." But to take up the point of the dispensation — obedience under the law by which life was to be: this obedience they undertook; and Moses returned to receive the various orderings of divine appointment as under it, and the two tables of testimony. But this dispensation, which met the failure of the world, which had gods many and lords many, and in form was to bring righteousness in the flesh, came to nothing in man's hand, before the order of it was brought down from the mount, or they had received in detail the record of what they had undertaken. They made, while Moses was in the mount, a golden calf, and said, "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of Egypt." The spring and foundation-stone of all the commandments and ordinances was gone. They had turned their glory into the similitude of a calf which eateth hay.

The ordinance or dispensation of priesthood failed in like manner. Before Aaron and his sons had gone out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, because the anointing oil of the Lord was upon them, Nadab and Abihu had already offered strange fire and been consumed before the Lord. The sons had not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, and the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place, as was commanded. The Lord spared them, but the service had failed in its very outset. And the Lord also spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the Lord and died; and the Lord said unto Moses, speak unto Aaron, thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil. The consequence was, that the garments of glory and beauty were never worn by the high priest save at his consecration. For he was to wear them only on going into the holy place within the veil, and his going in being now only on the day of atonement, he was desired withal on that day to come in other though holy garments. Thus failed the law—thus failed the priesthood, as all else, however God might carry it on in patience and mercy for a time, "till there was no remedy."1

The kingly dispensation failed in the same way as did the nation under the previous ordering which made way for the king (see Judges 2), the Lord having failed in nothing; Joshua 23: 14. David and Solomon having exhibited the royalty in victory and peace, Rehoboam and Jeroboam are but the witnesses of its utter failure, patience and mercy still going on, till the provocations of Manasseh set aside all hope of recovery or way of mercy in that dispensation. The same is true of universal rule transferred to the Gentiles: Nebuchadnezzar, the golden head, sets up the golden image, persecutes the faithful, and is turned into the image of a beast for his pride.

The rejection of our blessed Lord proved that no present mercy and grace, no present interference of God in goodness here, would meet the wilful and persevering enmity of the human heart, but only shewed it in its true light. But this, never being set up as a dispensation, but only the manifestation of His Person (to faith), I pass by. The last we have to notice, in a humbled sense of sin in us, is the present, where we are apt to take our ease in the world, as necessarily secure, but which, and the sin of which, the Lord sees and recognises, takes as much notice of, though not openly, as of others — the dispensation of the Spirit.

Much has been said, with strong objection to it, as to the apostasy or failure of this dispensation.

The results are but too plain. If we believe that the exhibitions of the Spirit's power and presence, in the second and fourth chapters of Acts, were gladsome and well-pleasing to the Lord, if the blessed Spirit was right in these effects — and who blasphemingly and in the darkness of his own soul dare to say He was not? — then is the present picture of Christendom just as opposite as one thing well can be from another. They have not kept their first estate. The patience and mercy, and sure grace of God has still kept up a witness to Himself through the mediation of Christ, it is true. So it was in every dispensation; but this did not alter or prevent the result of the apostasy. And the facts shew us that it was ever at the outset the failure or apostasy took place; and that it was patience and grace, which bore with and carried it on, but never undid the result of the first failure.

So to our shame has it been in Christianity. The state of the seven churches, I think, would shew this sufficiently to have been the case, and the way in which John was left at the close, to awaken the threats of judgment against a declining church. Where was Paul to hold all in vigour and beauty for the coming of the Lord, presenting every man perfect in Christ Jesus? He had to confess at the close of his career, "I have none likeminded who will naturally care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's."

Such was the result of apostolic labour; and the history of the book of Revelation, the testimonies of Peter and Jude, as well as the warnings of John and Paul, also shew that this would be the result of Christianity, according to the solemn sentence of the apostle,

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; on thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

But we may trace the immediateness of this failure more actually and definitely in circumstances to which the attention of the church seems little directed. When the Lord was parting from the disciples, He gives them the commandment, "Go ye and disciple all nations." Where is the fulfilment of this by the apostles whom He had chosen? This was their special commission from Him, as risen and having all power in heaven and earth. The principle and value of the dispensation could not be altered. But where is the fulfilment by the twelve apostles? Scripture affords it not. There is no account of the twelve in Scripture going into all the world and preaching the gospel to every creature: nothing which Scripture recognises as the accomplishment of this command. This in itself would be sufficient to show that the command on which the dispensation hung was, in the revealed testimony of God, unfulfilled by those to whom it was committed.

But I further find (contrary to the word, "when they persecute you in one city, flee ye to the next") that on the persecution which arose about the matter of Stephen, they were all scattered abroad except the apostles. But the testimony is not merely negative, for I find, in extraordinary grace, a new arrangement entirely made—an apostle of the Gentiles raised up, entirely distinct: "one born out of due time"; "not of man, nor by man"; who was neither apostle with them, nor from them, but asserts, as he proved, his own independent qualifications. And the Acts of the Apostles, as to ministry, are the acts of Peter, as one in whom God was mighty to the circumcision, and it was agreed that he should go to the circumcision, and Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles; and so the acts of Paul, as one in whom the same God was mighty towards the uncircumcision. That is, we find an express special office of apostle to the Gentiles, and whatever work was done of the commission, "Go ye into all nations" (Gentiles) was done, as presented to us in Scripture, actually by somebody else specially and extraordinarily raised up for the purpose. Thus, whatever grace and power from Him that was glorified might effect, this dispensation as well as any other failed and broke off in the very outset; and in point of fact the gospel has never been preached in all the world, nor all nations discipled to this day, but the church which was gathered has departed from the faith of the gospel, and gone away backward, so as to be as bad or worse than the heathen.

But the point which is proved in this is not merely that it is in a bad state now, but that like all others it broke down in the commencement — no sooner fully established than it proved a failure. This does not touch upon the faithfulness of God, but exalts it, as in the case of the Jews, where their lie abounded to the glory of God. The remnant have been preserved all through, and according to the measure of grace and faith have prospered, or have been raised up from depression according to the counsels of God; but the dispensation was gone. We belong to a better glory. Nor, this being brought in as the object of desire, can the believer seek other or old things and earthly arrangements. And as he cannot desire, so neither does Scripture present the restoration of a dispensation; it never justifies its actual condition; and though grace and faith may, as I have said, effect revivals during the long - suffering of God, the dispensation, as such, is actually gone, that the glory of the principle contained in it may shine forth in the hands of Messiah. The attempt to set this dispensation on another footing, as to its continuance, than those dispensations which have failed already, not only shews ignorance of the principles of God's dealings, for the calling of God was always by grace true (and if it were it never could make way for that which is to come under Messiah), but it is actually negatived by the assertion, that it stands on the same ground as to this with the Jewish — "if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11).

When He is come who can bind Satan himself, so that his power in the world shall be set aside, and not merely the testimony of the Lord's power maintained there, then shall there be continuance, until, for the accomplishment of the purposes of God, and the final separation of evil and good, he be let loose again for a little season. And the close of all dispensation, and the end of all question and title of authority shall come, and, all being finished, God shall be all in all without question and without failure. How the glory of God and our consequent blessing in these things is increased and enhanced might be very plainly shewn, as it is indeed just declared by the apostle; but if the fact be recognised and its truth established as before the Lord, it may suffice now.

Reference to the second chapter of Galatians will confirm and establish the point historically as to the present dispensation, where not only is the fact stated of Paul having the ministry of the Gentiles, as Peter of the circumcision; but it was actually agreed on their conference, consequent upon the grace given, that Paul and Barnabas should go to the uncircumcision; and James, and Cephas, and John should go to the circumcision. And so far was the apostle's mind under Judaising influence, that it required a positive fresh revelation to induce him to go into company with a Gentile at all, and even after this he would not eat when certain came from James. In fact the Gentile dispensation, as a distinct thing, took its rise on the death of Stephen, the witness that the Jews resisted the Holy Ghost: as their fathers did, so did they.
________________________________

[1] Prophecy was in fact evidence of the failure of the dispensation as well as of God's patience under it. Blessed to a remnant, it recalled to Moses and prophesied of Messiah. (See the last verses of Malachi.)

[Ted]

Terral,

I will deal with only one of your points. But first, allow me to compliment you on starting with a careful definition. Well done.

Based on Ephesians 5:32 you argue in standard Dispensationalist form that the church is a “mystery” that “was not seen by the OT Prophets and is a totally separate ‘dispensation’ from the Kingdom church based in Jerusalem.” There are four elements of this assertion.

1. A “mystery” is something that was completely hidden.
2. The “church” was not foreseen at all by the OT prophets.
3. The church is completely distinct from the Jews.
4. The “Kingdom church” is based in Jerusalem.

All four of these are false. Let me consider them in order.

1. A “mystery” is something that was completely hidden.
Ephesians 5:32 points out that Christ is part of this mystery. We know that Christ is the Messiah, and that there are literally hundreds of prophecies of the Messiah in the OT. Further, on the Emmaus road (Luke 24:27), Jesus explained to two disciples the things that had been written about Him in the OT (Law of Moses, Prophets, and Psalms; Luke 24:44).

The Messiah was a mystery (Eph 3:4). But He was not completely unknown. Instead, he was poorly understood. And seeing that this passage is in the immediate context of Ephesians, we should give it great weight as we understand the word “mystery.” In fact, there are seven NT passages that link “Christ” and “mystery” in this way, while only two link “church” and “mystery.” One of those is Revelation 1:20, where it is clearly an issue of interpreting a symbolic vision where the symbol is previously undefined. That leaves only Ephesians 5:32 to support your view, and it has both “Christ” and “church” as the “mystery.” Since we have already shown that Christ was not completely hidden in the OT, the presumption is that the church wasn’t, either. And that takes us to point 2.

2. The “church” was not foreseen at all by the OT prophets.
You pointed out in your post that the church is spoken of as Christ’s bride in the NT. It’s called the same thing in the OT. Psalm 45 is an allegory of the church. Jeremiah 2:32 refers to Israel as God’s bride. Isaiah 61:10 does the same. But perhaps the best is Hosea 2:14-20 where the faithful of Israel are explicitly “betrothed” to God.

The conclusion of this is inescapable. Faithful Israel and Judah were God’s bride, as repeatedly stated by the OT prophets. Since Christ is God, and the church is the bride of Christ (Rev 21:9), faithful Israel and Judah are the church. Of course, that is what Stephen calls the Israelites in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). But we should go further.

The single most pervasive image in the OT is harlotry. When Israelites slipped into idolatry, they were “playing the harlot.” The opposite of this is faithfulness, which is chastity, the state of the pure bride. Thus, the idea that the church is the bride of Christ is designed to bring the church into identity with the faithful remnant of ancient Israel. They are one and the same.

3. The church is completely distinct from the Jews.
From what we have already seen, the faithful remnant of the Jews is the church. But we should ask the apostles for their own testimony. Reading the book of Acts, we find that the church was called “the Way” (Acts 24:14, 22) a “sect of the Jews” (Acts 24:5). The Apostles considered themselves to be the reformation of Judaism into its proper form.

4. The “Kingdom church” is based in Jerusalem.
This is based on the false idea that the Bible is flat. That is, the OT prophecies are complete and cannot be added to by NT interpreters. But progressive revelation tells us more about the OT prophecies. In this case, Paul clearly identifies “Jerusalem” as the church in Hebrews 12:18-24. Jerusalem in God’s eyes has ceased to be a plot of land. It is His people. And this is in keeping with the OT, where Nebuchadnezzar “took all Jerusalem captive to Babylon” (2 Kgs 24:14). God’s “Kingdom church” is not found by looking on a map. It is found by looking for Jesus in His people.

The bottom line is that the church is a continuation of true OT Yahwism, and that it was indeed foreseen in the OT. It is the “remnant” spoken of so many times in OT prophecy. The Dispensationalist schema that separates the church and Israel is unbiblical.

Ted

[spauline]

Catholic theology only admits of two ultimate dispensations, the OLD and the NEW. However, I don't see any reason why there couldn't be SUBEPOCHS within these dispensations. IN fact, I think that Salvation History has manifested itself as linear alternation between major epochs of salvation and major epochs of trial. then, from a Catholic Postmill view of hisotry, here is how I would delineate the epochs:



I. Creation
II. The Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
III. The Flood
IV. The Tower of Babel
V. The Confounding of Languages at Babel and the Calling of Abraham VI. Egypt's Enslavement of the Hebrews
VII. The Exodus
VIII. Israel Falls Away / Chastisement: Babylonian Exile
IX. Israel Returns to God and their Home Land
X. OT Antichrist: Antiochus and Maccabbees
XI. The First Coming of Christ
XII. Pagan Rome / Barbarians Persecute
XIII. Western Civilization Converts (Christendom)
XIV. Western Civ Falls Away
XV. Western Civ Returns to God / Age of Peace
XVI. NT Antichrist: Great Apostasy and Tribulation
XVII. The Second Coming of Christ / New Creation


Further, extracting the bad epochs, we get exactly eight, correllating perfectily with the eight heads of the Beast in Rev. 17:9-11. For further explanation, read this:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...ast#post795279

Sincerely,
scott

[Terral]

Hi Ted:

Ted >> Based on Ephesians 5:32 you argue in standard Dispensationalist form that the church is a “mystery” that “was not seen by the OT Prophets and is a totally separate ‘dispensation’ from the Kingdom church based in Jerusalem.”

I teach that the ‘mystery is great,’ and that Paul is speaking “with reference to Christ and the church” (Eph. 5:32) as “His Body.” Eph. 5:30. Paul connects the “His body” mystery “church” (Col. 1:24) to “stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit” (Col. 1:25) here with the Colossians, and in Eph. 3:1-6 to the Ephesians. Everything Paul ties to the ‘mystery’ remained ‘hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9) until ‘revealed’ at a time appointed by God Himself, according to the definition of ‘musterion.’

Mystery - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

Musterion - primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .” http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/find_term.pl See the full definition here.

Ted >> There are four elements of this assertion. 1. A “mystery” is something that was completely hidden. 2. The “church” was not foreseen at all by the OT prophets. 3. The church is completely distinct from the Jews. 4. The “Kingdom church” is based in Jerusalem. All four of these are false. Let me consider them in order.

‘A mystery’ is knowledge withheld until God decides it will be ‘truth revealed,’ according to the true definition of the term. Scripture has connected several things directly to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3+4) in order to present the fact that ‘those’ things are ‘revealed’ in the New Testament and after Calvary.

Ted >> 1. A “mystery” is something that was completely hidden. Ephesians 5:32 points out that Christ is part of this mystery.

No sir. The Mystery is that the “members of His body” (Eph. 5:30) are the ‘church’ (called out assembly) Eph. 3:32.

Ted >> We know that Christ is the Messiah, and that there are literally hundreds of prophecies of the Messiah in the OT. Further, on the Emmaus road (Luke 24:27), Jesus explained to two disciples the things that had been written about Him in the OT (Law of Moses, Prophets, and Psalms; Luke 24:44).

Again, Christ is not the mystery, as practically all the OT speaks of Him. They also know that He will have a ‘bride’ (John 3:29) according to Prophecy. Hosea 2:19+20. None of the prophets saw that He would have a Gentile dominant ‘body of Christ.’ Your argument is built upon a false premise.

Ted >> The Messiah was a mystery (Eph 3:4). But He was not completely unknown. Instead, he was poorly understood. And seeing that this passage is in the immediate context of Ephesians, we should give it great weight as we understand the word “mystery.”

No sir. Christ is not the mystery of Eph. 3:4. The ‘mystery of Christ’ is about the summing up of all things in the heavens and the earth ‘in’ Christ, described briefly in Eph. 1:9+10. This is about all things being subjected to the Son (1Cor. 15:27). Paul is describing the ‘administration of the mystery’ in Eph. 3 5-12 (9), which is a microcosm or smaller version of the greater Mystery. The Jew and Gentile in ‘the body’ (His Body; Eph. 5:30) is an even smaller version of the ‘administration’ (vs. 9) summing up process. Christ Himself is God’s mystery (Col. 2:2), as only the Son will subjected back to God, when He becomes all in all (1Cor. 15:28). To understand what Paul is describing as this ‘manifold wisdom’ of God, you must gain the ability to recognize the mystery as a summing up process. Reading this post will help:

http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=008509

‘The mystery’ describes the secret wisdom of God through a series of ‘spirit, water, blood’ (three witness; 1John 5:8) summing up scenarios for various bodies. The type of all types is represented by the relationship God (John 1:1) has with creation (John 1:3) through His Word/Son (John 1:2). Whether the two bodies are the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1) or Jews and Gentiles (Eph. 3:5+6), the ‘process’ is the same. Even the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) have relationships built upon the grand daddy of all the types of Scripture (John 1:1-3). To simply say that Jesus is the Mystery of Eph. 3:4 is not an accurate statement.

Ted >> In fact, there are seven NT passages that link “Christ” and “mystery” in this way, while only two link “church” and “mystery.” One of those is Revelation 1:20, where it is clearly an issue of interpreting a symbolic vision where the symbol is previously undefined.

The mention of Christ and a ‘mystery’ in a verse in no way makes “Christ” the mystery in any of them. Here are the verses: In Romans 16:25 Paul connects the ‘my gospel’ to the ‘mystery.’ In Eph. 3:4 he ties the Mystery of Christ (in brief; Eph. 1:9+10) to the ‘administration of the mystery’ in Eph. 3:8-11, and the ‘church’ being ‘the body’ (Eph. 3:5+6) as all three are depictions of the summing up process. In Col. 1:27 the ‘mystery among the Gentiles’ is ‘Christ in you’ the hope of glory. The new knowledge being presented is the fact that Christ indwells each and every member of the church (Col. 1:24) who is obedient to the ‘gospel,’ according to the stewardship of God bestowed upon him. (Col. 1:25). In Col. 2:2 Christ Himself is the Mystery of God in that all things are summed up in the Son (1Cor. 15:27) first, for Him ONLY to be then subjected back to God (all in all). 1Cor. 15:28. This is a reversal of the process that began in the beginning (John 1:1-3), as His Word was sent forth. Only the Word was sent, and only the Son is summed up; thus, Christ Himself is God’s Mystery. Paul is speaking of the same ‘mystery of Christ’ to the Colossians in Col. 4:3 (Eph. 3:4).

Your Rev. 1:20 verse is describing the process which is about to take place before the Lamb throughout the ‘Lord’s day’ (Rev. 1:10), which is the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) of the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10). He holds the body of angels in one hand, and the body of the churches (bride) in the other like two giant beach balls. The two shall be joined together to only touch at the beginning, the over time the two gradually overlap, until finally the two become One. This is part of the process of restoring all things to the pre-fall state that existed during the perfect ages of Genesis 1:1, and before the Satanic fall. In that time there was no such thing as angels or men. All beings were created with knowledge of all things; perfect, complete and immortal. There was no such thing as spirit or body, because they were the same thing. Only after the fall of Genesis 1:2 did the universe become broken (darkness upon the face of the deep) and this triune relationship of ‘things’ came into being. The ‘mystery’ describes the process through which all things divided are to again become One.

Ted >> That leaves only Ephesians 5:32 to support your view, and it has both “Christ” and “church” as the “mystery.” Since we have already shown that Christ was not completely hidden in the OT, the presumption is that the church wasn’t, either. And that takes us to point 2.

Heh. No sir. My arguments are based upon a very good knowledge of the many teachings in Scripture on the Mystery. Thus far I see no evidence at all that you possess even an elementary knowledge of the topic. Therefore, the conclusions you wish to draw are not very convincing to this side of the debate. You are standing in the center of my favorite topic in Scripture.

Ted >> 2. The “church” was not foreseen at all by the OT prophets. You pointed out in your post that the church is spoken of as Christ’s bride in the NT. It’s called the same thing in the OT.

You would do well to ‘quote me’ and provide supported statements against what I said, instead of building straw men. The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) is most definitely seen by the OT Prophets, as evidenced by Hosea 2:19+20 and the Lord’s promise of betrothal. Peter, John and James are called the ‘sons/servants of the bridal chamber’ (Matt. 2:19), which is a description of positions of distinction relative to the ‘bridegroom’ in Jewish tradition. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) is the vehicle through which Christ was gathering the members to this prophetic “kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6) and ‘holy nation.’ Christ was sent to Israel only (Matt. 15:24) to fulfill all of these things of Prophecy. None of those things for the ‘bride’ has any significance whatsoever to the mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) of the Pauline Epistles. Peter is over the kingdom ‘bride’ church (Matt. 16:16-19, 18:17) of Prophecy, while Paul is over the mystery ‘His body’ (Col. 1:24) church. Eph. 3:1-3 (2).

Ted >> The conclusion of this is inescapable. Faithful Israel and Judah were God’s bride, as repeatedly stated by the OT prophets. Since Christ is God, and the church is the bride of Christ (Rev 21:9), faithful Israel and Judah are the church. Of course, that is what Stephen calls the Israelites in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). But we should go further.

First off, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:34. God was in Him reconciling us to Himself. 2Cor. 5:19. There is one God and one Mediator Christ Jesus. 1Tim. 2:5. Do not confuse our Lord Jesus, and God who raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9). Secondly, we agree that the Kingdom ‘bride’ is part of Prophecy. That is the church of the Four Gospels and Hebrews – Revelation. The ‘mystery’ His body ‘Church’ (Eph. 5:32) in the world today is the one described in the Pauline Epistles. We are a totally separate body under the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) given to the Apostle Paul. Our church did not even begin, until after the start of Acts 9.

Ted >> 3. The church is completely distinct from the Jews. From what we have already seen, the faithful remnant of the Jews is the church. But we should ask the apostles for their own testimony. Reading the book of Acts, we find that the church was called “the Way” (Acts 24:14, 22) a “sect of the Jews” (Acts 24:5). The Apostles considered themselves to be the reformation of Judaism into its proper form.

You are describing the Kingdom Church of the Four Gospels, Acts, Hebrews – Revelation. That is ‘not’ the Mystery Church of the Pauline Epistles. The Apostle Paul was sent through a revelation to submit our gospel (Gal. 2:2) to Peter, John and James (Gal. 2:9) in the great meeting of Acts 15. That was a meeting between the Prophetic ‘bride’ (under Peter) and the Mystery ‘body’ (under Paul).

Ted >> 4. The “Kingdom church” is based in Jerusalem. This is based on the false idea that the Bible is flat. That is, the OT prophecies are complete and cannot be added to by NT interpreters.

Please . . . This is based upon the fact that the Kingdom church under Peter was located in Jerusalem. Philip preached the ‘good news concerning the Kingdom of God’ (Acts 8:12) to the Samarians in Act 8. Where did the apostles come from to lay hands on them?

Acts 8:14 and The Kingdom Church In Jerusalem

"Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John."

This is where Paul had to go and find Peter, John and James if he ever wanted to meet with them. But the place he avoided going first.

Galatians 1:17+18 and Where You Could Find Peter And The Twelve

"nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles [ The Twelve ] before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus."Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days."

When the Apostle Paul was sent to submit our Gospel to Peter in fear of failure, where did he go?

Galatians 2:1 and Paul Going To Submit Peter Our Gospel

"Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also."

Acts 15:4 and Arriving At Jerualem

"When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church [ Kingdom church of Prophecy under Peter ] and the apostles [ the Twelve ] and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them."

Ted >> But progressive revelation tells us more about the OT prophecies. In this case, Paul clearly identifies “Jerusalem” as the church in Hebrews 12:18-24.

Really? What makes you believe that Paul wrote Hebrews? And if he did, what has that to do with his churches in Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica etc.? Paul never uses the term “priest” one time in any of his Epistles to the Churches. The writer of Hebrews used the term over thirty times in that one Epistle. What on earth are you going on about? The ‘church’ of Paul’s Epistles is the collective ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) represented by all the ‘members’ of His body. The body of Christ is a living ‘organism’ and not a building or structure. Christ’s body has members all over the globe from sea to shining sea; north, south, east and west. Every Epistle Paul penned to the churches bears his name at the very beginning.

Ted >> Jerusalem in God’s eyes has ceased to be a plot of land. It is His people. And this is in keeping with the OT, where Nebuchadnezzar “took all Jerusalem captive to Babylon” (2 Kgs 24:14). God’s “Kingdom church” is not found by looking on a map. It is found by looking for Jesus in His people.

Please do not present commentary in this direction from “God’s eyes” and how He sees His ‘chosen race.’ Exodus 19:6, 1Pet. 2:9. All of God’s promises to Israel shall be fulfilled exactly as Scripture says. They shall posses the Promised Land (Gen. 15:18) from the “river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.” The Kingdom of Ezekiel 47+48 shall be restored along with everything else God has promised.

Ted >> The bottom line is that the church is a continuation of true OT Yahwism, and that it was indeed foreseen in the OT. It is the “remnant” spoken of so many times in OT prophecy. The Dispensationalist schema that separates the church and Israel is unbiblical.

God makes the plans and has given His Word on what shall come to pass. 2Tim. 3:16+17. To try and prove that ‘Israel’ is the mystery church of the Pauline Epistles is impossible. Paul addresses the ‘body’ in the first person, and Israel in the third person.

Romans 11:7+11

"What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . . I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous."

Since when did Israel become “Gentiles?” Paul’s ‘fellow countrymen’ are the Jews, partner.

Romans 11:13+14

"But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

Israel as a nation has become hardened to these things, but shall all be saved afterwards.

Romans 11:25 and Israel's Blindness During This Time

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written . . .".

In Christ,

Terral

[Ted]

Terral,

It’s good to see you argue from scripture, unlike many who have posted on this site. So let us deal with your arguments and see if you are presenting all of what scripture says.

The Mystery is that the “members of His body” (Eph. 5:30) are the ‘church’ (called out assembly) Eph. 3:32.

It’s good to have an explicit statement to discuss, rather than an inference in a thousand words. My compliments.

Your key passages are Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3, 5. So I will use them as the primary sources for interpretation. Let’s see what Paul calls the mystery.

Scripture Verse:

Ephesians 3:1-4 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

Notice what Paul calls the mystery: “the mystery of Christ.” Of course, in typical Pauline form, he doesn’t stop there.

Scripture Verse:

Ephesians 3:6 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

We must pause for a moment here. The Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body. What body? The natural answer is the church (Eph 5:30). But what is the church? As I noted in my prior post, the apostles considered themselves to be the revival of true Judaism. You argue a difference between the “Pauline mystery church” and the church of the rest of the NT. Yet you offer no scripture to support it, and it is very likely that Paul wrote Hebrews, (it contains many unique Pauline statements) and that book you claim to present a church different from the other. That is completely unscriptural. You have simply asserted it. That’s not good enough.

The second question here is, “Heirs to what?” There is only one inheritance for saints in the NT. That is the Kingdom (1 Cor 6:9. Note that “eternal life” is part of that inheritance). In Rom 4:13ff Paul makes it painfully clear that the inheritance of the world, the location of the eschatological kingdom, is by faith, and Abraham is one of those heirs. Further, Gal 3:29 makes it clear that the inheritance belongs to those who belong to Christ, and that is the church. Thus, the church is the same body to which Abraham belonged.

The third question is, “What was hidden?” Paul says that the hidden part is the participation of the Gentiles in the body. But even that was not completely hidden at any point in time. Starting with Abraham, there were converted pagans in the church. Remember that even Abraham wasn’t a Jew. He came from Ur, the son of a pagan, and a pagan himself. After hearing the voice of God, he followed Yahweh.

As we follow history, at the Exodus, we find that the incorporation of Gentiles into God’s people was a normal part of things. In Exodus 12:38, there is a large mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites. Obviously, they had been faithful enough to observe the Passover. In Exodus 12:48, God makes it clear that if these people are willing to accept the sign of the covenant, circumcision, then they will become “like natives.” The literal Hebrew says that they will be “as one born of the land.” In other words, they will be “born again.” (This is the source of Nicodemus’ problem in John 3). Thus, at the Exodus, a “large mixed multitude” of Gentiles became part of the body. Isaiah 56:3 repeats the fact that incorporation of Gentiles into the body was an established fact.

This leaves us with some detective work. Since none of the aspects of Paul’s declaration of the mystery were in fact hidden in scripture, how can any of them be “hidden?” I propose that the answer lies in the parochialism of the post-exilic Jews. After the return from the Babylonian exile and the Maccabean episode, the Pharisees arose as a response to the continual difficulties of the Jews. The worked to bring the Jews in line with God’s law. In doing so, they erected great fences around the law, isolating the Jews from the Gentiles (see Acts 10:28). This removed the missionary activity of Jews, making the incorporation of Gentiles into Judaism into a footnote. (Yes, there were still proselytes, see Acts 16:14, etc.).

For other passages, consider Isaiah 33:19, where God declares that the Gentiles will be the teachers of Israel, or Hosea 1:10 where God declares that the Gentiles will become part of the number of Israel “greater than the sands of the sea.”

In sum, there is no warrant for claiming that the church was a mystery not disclosed in the OT. It may have been concealed by the self-proclaimed teachers of the Jews, but it was still present in the sacred writings. Further, the NT writers full claim the promises to Israel as applying to the church. Thus, the church is true Israel.

‘A mystery’ is knowledge withheld until God decides it will be ‘truth revealed,’ according to the true definition of the term. Scripture has connected several things directly to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3+4) in order to present the fact that ‘those’ things are ‘revealed’ in the New Testament and after Calvary.

As can be seen from the work just done above, your definition is false. A mystery is something not well understood, not something completely concealed.

None of the prophets saw that He would have a Gentile dominant ‘body of Christ.’ Your argument is built upon a false premise.

Unfortunately, this is contrary to Isaiah 33:19 and Hosea 1:10, cited above.

‘The mystery’ describes the secret wisdom of God through a series of ‘spirit, water, blood’ (three witness; 1John 5:8) summing up scenarios for various bodies.

Unfortunately, this passage is spurious. It does not exist in the best manuscripts in the form you present, and therefore is inappropriate to use as a proof.

**You cite a whole raft of “mystery” passages as if they were talking about the same thing. That’s bad exegesis. Taken contextually, they are speaking of separate (although related) things. Since their subjects are separate, it is not proper to try to push them into a single box as if Paul only talks about a single mystery. You should note 1 Cor 15:51, where the "mystery" is that some will not die, but will be translated at the parousia.

Your Rev. 1:20 verse is describing the process which is about to take place before the Lamb throughout the ‘Lord’s day’ (Rev. 1:10), which is the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) of the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10).

I had hoped that you could use good methods of interpretation, but here you go out into left field. Contextually, 2 Peter 3 isn’t talking about the millennium at all. Rather, it is talking about the apparent delay between Peter’s day and the parousia. Further, there is nothing in Rev 1:10 to link it with Rev 20.

The “Lord’s Day” in Rev 1:10 is a nearly unique verbal construction. kuriakee’ occurs only there and in 1 Cor 11:20. The only contemporary document we have that uses it is the Didache’ (Section 14). There it uses the term to speak about the day on which the Lord’s Supper (cf. 1 Cor 11:20) was observed. We know historically that this was Passover. Thus, the “Lord’s Day” in Rev 1:10 is Passover, which fits the motif of Revelation, which is delivery from Egypt.

The idea that Rev 1:10 is speaking of the Day of the Lord requires a tortured reading of the syntax of the passage, and while it has a superficial appeal, is simply without contextual or lexical support.

The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) is most definitely seen by the OT Prophets

I’m glad you see that, since the church is the bride of Christ. Having admitted that, you have affirmatively contradicted your position that the church was not foreseen in the OT. Further, you say:

The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) is the vehicle through which Christ was gathering the members to this prophetic “kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6) and ‘holy nation.’ Christ was sent to Israel only (Matt. 15:24) to fulfill all of these things of Prophecy. None of those things for the ‘bride’ has any significance whatsoever to the mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) of the Pauline Epistles.

Let’s see, now, Peter addresses the church as the holy priesthood, etc in 1 Peter 2, in keeping with your assertion that he is “over the ‘bride’ (i.e., foreseen in the OT) church.” This is, by your argument, a church of the Jews. I suppose that explains why, in Rev 21, the New Jerusalem has twelve gates named for the twelve tribes of Israel. Of course, the Gentile church must enter through the Jewish gates. I get it now. And I suppose that is why the Gentile churches in Rev 2-3 get letters with a return address in the Jewish sanctuary (Rev 1:12-20).

First off, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:34. God was in Him reconciling us to Himself. 2Cor. 5:19. There is one God and one Mediator Christ Jesus. 1Tim. 2:5. Do not confuse our Lord Jesus, and God who raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

It seems clear from this statement that you deny the Trinity. If that is true, then you are a committing a heresy.

We are a totally separate body under the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) given to the Apostle Paul. Our church did not even begin, until after the start of Acts 9.

Now I know your are Acts9 Dispy. The refutation of that is so simple I’m surprised you haven’t seen it. Historically, the church began in Jerusalem. Paul was converted later, went to Arabia, then returned to the Jerusalem church. There (Gal 2:2ff) he “submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles.). This is quite clearly his message to the Gentiles that you regard as a “new” church after Acts 9. That might seem to be supported by Gal 3:7, where Peter is assigned to the Jews, while Paul goes to Gentiles. But notice that the church “gave (Paul) the right hand of fellowship” (Gal 2:9) after reviewing Paul’s gospel and finding it correct. In other words, “the gospel” preached by Paul was the same as that preached by the rest. Further, Paul points out all this after he pronounces a curse on anyone who preaches any gospel other than his (Gal 1:8-9). Put simply, there is no other church than Paul’s. After all, if there is, then it preaches a gospel different from Paul’s. Of course, then it is accursed, and it isn’t preaching a gospel at all.

Acts9 Dispy has to believe that there is only one gospel, but there are really two gospels. It has to believe that there is only one church, but there are really two churches. It is self-refuting.

Please do not present commentary in this direction from “God’s eyes” and how He sees His ‘chosen race.’ Exodus 19:6, 1Pet. 2:9. All of God’s promises to Israel shall be fulfilled exactly as Scripture says. They shall posses the Promised Land (Gen. 15:18) from the “river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.”

I guess you aren’t willing to read your favorite apostle’s inspired commentary on Genesis 15:18.

Scripture Verse:

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:13

Of course, that is what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5. But wait! I forgot. Jesus started Peter’s church, and that has nothing to do with Paul. I get it.

Put bluntly, the Bible interprets itself, if you let it. There is only one church. It has existed since Adam. There is only one gospel. It has existed since before the fall (1 Pet 1:20). Your divisions are artificial and unbiblical. I would properly call them heresy.

Ted

[Terral]

Hi Ted:

Terral Original >> The Mystery is that the “members of His body” (Eph. 5:30) are the ‘church’ (called out assembly) Eph. 3:32.

Ted >> It’s good to have an explicit statement to discuss, rather than an inference in a thousand words. My compliments. Your key passages are Colossians 1 and Ephesians 3, 5. So I will use them as the primary sources for interpretation. Let’s see what Paul calls the mystery. (Quote Eph. 3:1-4). Notice what Paul calls the mystery: “the mystery of Christ.”

No sir. Paul says,

Ephesians 3:3+4

“. . . that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief [ Eph. 1:9+10 ]. By referring to this [ what I am about to reveal ], when you read [ here in Eph. 3 ] you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.”

As described above in the thread, “The Mystery” is the ‘title’ of the whole body of ‘revelations’ that binds each together into one teaching. Paul briefly wrote about it in chapter one of this same letter (Eph. 1:9+10). The Mystery of Christ is a subtitle and one chapter that falls under the main heading, which is the summing up of all things ‘in Christ.’ Paul reveals an even larger mystery that Christ Himself is the Mystery of God. Col. 2:2. That is about the Son being subjected back to God, as He becomes ‘all in all.’ 1Cor. 15:28. ‘The Mystery’ relates to the teaching of these things previously ‘hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9), which are NOW being revealed or manifested to His saints. Even the concept of ‘summing up’ is a part of ‘The Mystery,’ which Paul is describing as ‘a process.’ That ‘process’ is the commonality between every aspect of ‘The Mystery’ Paul reveals throughout his Epistles. The reason your statement above is false is because ‘The Mystery of Christ’ is one specific teaching about two specific realms (Heavens and Earth; Eph. 1:10) being summed up ‘in’ Christ Jesus. Where is God in that equation? “The Mystery” is the process being revealed, according to the Mother of all Types, which is based upon Our Infinite God’s (John 1:1) relationship with all Creation (all His universes) through His Word (John 1:2). ‘The Mystery’ is about how God becomes ‘all in all’ through an infinite number of these processes. Our universe is as one star in an infinite galaxy of stars before Boundless His Presence. The ‘mystery of Christ’ of Paul’s Epistles relates ‘only’ to the summing up of things in our one universe.

Ted >> Of course, in typical Pauline form, he doesn’t stop there. Scripture Verse: Ephesians 3:6 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Yes. Jew (like heavens) and Gentile (like earth) are being summed up into ‘one body’ (Christ’s body; 1Cor. 12:27) according to the type Paul just gave you in Ephesians 1:9+10 for our entire universe. The summing up of our local ‘heaven’ and planet ‘earth’ is a smaller version of the summing up of all creation. Paul is using the ‘template’ of the larger teaching to demonstrate how Jews and Gentiles are being ‘baptized into the ‘one body’ (1Cor. 12:13) and ‘into Christ’ (Gal. 3:27) and into ‘Christ’s body.’ (1Cor. 12:27). There is no such thing as Jew or Greek, or male or female ‘in’ Christ Jesus. Gal. 3:28. There is no such thing as angel or man ‘in’ Christ Jesus, as we are transfigured into our immortal bodies (1Cor. 15:53). When the angels are also summed up ‘in’ Christ, they will no longer have just spiritual bodies, but they will be like us; able to walk in both realms.

Ted >> We must pause for a moment here. The Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body. What body? The natural answer is the church (Eph 5:30). But what is the church? As I noted in my prior post, the apostles considered themselves to be the revival of true Judaism.

Please . . . My points in the post above remain standing against those views. Restating them over and over proves nothing. We are not seeking any ‘natural answer,’ but exactly what Scripture says. The ‘Church’ is ‘His body’ (Col. 1:24) or “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27). Why am I repeating these things?

Ted >> You argue a difference between the “Pauline mystery church” and the church of the rest of the NT. Yet you offer no scripture to support it,

No Scripture? You received Scripture and the definition of the term ‘mystery.’ The Kingdom ‘church’ (Matt. 16:16-19) was seen by the OT Prophets. Israel was becoming a ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6) as the ‘holy nation.’ 1Pet. 2:9. Prophecy cannot speak about things ‘hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9). This is a reply to the points in my post? Where are they? Answer: Still standing above in this thread . . .

Ted >> and it is very likely that Paul wrote Hebrews, (it contains many unique Pauline statements) and that book you claim to present a church different from the other. That is completely unscriptural. You have simply asserted it. That’s not good enough.

That is the truth, whether you accept it or not. All of Paul’s Epistles to the churches bear his name at the very beginning. Hebrews is a kingdom book to Levitical priests of the coming Kingdom of God on earth. The precepts of doctrine contained within Hebrews do not match the teachings contained by the Pauline Epistles. You are free to believe whatever you like.

Ted >> The second question here is, “Heirs to what?” There is only one inheritance for saints in the NT. That is the Kingdom (1 Cor 6:9. Note that “eternal life” is part of that inheritance). In Rom 4:13ff Paul makes it painfully clear that the inheritance of the world, the location of the eschatological kingdom, is by faith, and Abraham is one of those heirs. Further, Gal 3:29 makes it clear that the inheritance belongs to those who belong to Christ, and that is the church. Thus, the church is the same body to which Abraham belonged.

Your point is mute, as you are quoting only from the Pauline Epistles about things belonging to the ‘body of Christ.’ Israel is seeking a kingdom of God on this earth, in the Promised Land (Gen. 15:18); to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6, 1Pet. 2:9), with a kingdom on this earth (Ezekiel 47+48). Peter, John and James are given thrones over Israel ONLY (Luke 22:30), while the body of Christ shall judge the world and the angels. 1Cor. 6:2+3. You are mixing together things which do not belong to one another.

Ted >> The third question is, “What was hidden?” Paul says that the hidden part is the participation of the Gentiles in the body. But even that was not completely hidden at any point in time. Starting with Abraham, there were converted pagans in the church. Remember that even Abraham wasn’t a Jew. He came from Ur, the son of a pagan, and a pagan himself. After hearing the voice of God, he followed Yahweh.

Abraham is the father of all the Jews (Isaac / Jacob) and Arabs (Esau). The hidden part is that Christ would even have a body. Prophecy said He would have a ‘bride.’ Hosea 2:19+20. Paul’s teaching is from the perspective of teaching these ‘Gentiles’ (Eph. 3:1+2) about their part in this mystery process. The Jews and Gentiles who believe Paul’s gospel are being grafted into the same Rich Root. Rom. 11:17. The Gentiles are NOT being grafted into Israel. Your interpretation is watering down the truth of Paul’s teaching on the Mystery, as these Ephesians are being given ‘insight’ into the ‘Mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4) through this “Jew / Gentile” ‘one body’ teaching. Again, the Jews are representative of the heavens, and the Gentiles are being represented by the earth (Eph. 1:10). The ‘one body’ (Eph. 4:4) is ‘Christ’s body’ (1Cor. 12:27) in both illustrations. The barrier of the dividing wall (Eph. 2:14) is broken down ‘in’ His Flesh (Eph. 2:15), and not in the world.

Ted >> As we follow history, at the Exodus, we find that the incorporation of Gentiles into God’s people was a normal part of things.

That should tell you that the Gentile inclusion is not the ‘mystery’ part of the teaching . . .

Ted >> In Exodus 12:38, there is a large mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites. Obviously, they had been faithful enough to observe the Passover. In Exodus 12:48, God makes it clear that if these people are willing to accept the sign of the covenant, circumcision, then they will become “like natives.” The literal Hebrew says that they will be “as one born of the land.” In other words, they will be “born again.” (This is the source of Nicodemus’ problem in John 3). Thus, at the Exodus, a “large mixed multitude” of Gentiles became part of the body. Isaiah 56:3 repeats the fact that incorporation of Gentiles into the body was an established fact.

Please . . . Nicodemus and Christ are talking about precepts of doctrine for the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc. At that time Christ was sent to Israel only (Matt. 15:24) and He told the Twelve not to go in the way of Gentiles. Matt. 10:5-7. Peter is preaching to Israel only in Acts 2 (14, 22, 36). Again, you are mixing together things in which God has put asunder. The fulfillment of Prophecy for Israel is NOT the revelation of the Mystery for the ‘body of Christ.’ They represent two TOTALLY different bodies of Doctrine.

Ted >> This leaves us with some detective work. Since none of the aspects of Paul’s declaration of the mystery were in fact hidden in scripture, how can any of them be “hidden?”

Because they were ‘hidden in God.’ Eph. 3:9. You are loosing me with this very weak series of arguments, and your ‘way off’ statements shall be deleted.

Terral Original >> ‘A mystery’ is knowledge withheld until God decides it will be ‘truth revealed,’ according to the true definition of the term. Scripture has connected several things directly to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3+4) in order to present the fact that ‘those’ things are ‘revealed’ in the New Testament and after Calvary.

Ted >> As can be seen from the work just done above, your definition is false. A mystery is something not well understood, not something completely concealed.

No, Ted. Where do you define the term “musterion” in your Bible? I presented Vines Definition at the top of the last post. Nothing you wrote above is proof of anything, except you are mixing Prophecy with the Mystery. If the things Paul ‘revealed’ as connected to ‘The Mystery’ were in the OT, then they would be called Prophecy. I do not believe you have enough stature in this area of Scripture for us to have a fruitful conversation. Keep in mind that Paul teaches,

1Corinthians 2:6+7

“Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”

Going back to OT Scripture and finding something that might relate to the Mystery is not evidence of anything. These things remained hidden in God so that Satan could not now about His hidden wisdom. That is The Mystery 101, partner, and until we can get past that lesson, there is really not much left to discuss.

In Christ,

Terral