Different Story When The Shoe Is On The Other Foot

[Minnesota]

From the WingNut Daily

Ya'll pray now, ya hear?

posted: May 3, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com


Karen Majewski, City Council President of Hamtramck, Mich., said, it has "very little to do with" the town. "It has to do with change."

Uh oh.

People of belief, especially Christians, are enduring "change" – with the intentional removal of every speck of prayer and religion from our schools, textbooks, courthouses, government, military, town squares, commerce, the media, entertainment, music – whatever and wherever it might be found.


So how do you explain Hamtramck, Mich.?

It's perfectly clear that no matter where it is, how it's portrayed or what its role, the very existence of belief sets atheist and agnostic teeth on edge. They'll do whatever is necessary to get rid of it with lawsuits filed by people who are "offended" or "embarrassed" by being exposed to the religious beliefs of others.

So what are they doing about Hamtramck, Mich.?

These are often the same people who support violent films, misogynist literature, obscene public behavior, vile language in public, and all forms of sexual perversion. They'll defend the right of people to express themselves. If that bothers other people – well, tough – free speech and all that.

But if someone has a religious picture on their desk, if a teacher wears a crucifix or a yarmulke, all "you-know-what" breaks out putting jobs and careers at risk. If you put a religious statue on your lawn or in your shopping center, you'll virtually guarantee being hit with a lawsuit claiming someone was offended.

Where's that "offended" lawsuit in Hamtramck?

Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore is out of a job because he refused to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the courthouse, even though acknowledgement of God is part of that state's constitution. A special court unanimously upheld his ouster.

Public religious displays are under fire: Christmas nativity scenes, and other decorations; a cross honoring war dead ordered removed from the Mojave National Preserve; any religious decorations or celebrations in school activities and programs.

The city of Redlands, Calif. – to avoid an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit – is removing a cross as part of its logo. It's been there 40 years. The ACLU sued an Ohio city for the same reason and won.

An atheist sues to remove God from the Pledge of Allegiance and there was a lawsuit in San Francisco to stop church bells from chiming. It failed. For now.

So what's happening in Hamtramck?

In that city of 23,000 people, the local government voted unanimously to allow religion to be pushed into every aspect of life there, except for soundproof rooms. There aren't too many of those.

There was no public vote. The city council decided it.

Many citizens objected angrily at the council meeting – to no avail.

Does it surprise you that the objectors are called "Christian bigots"?

It shouldn't, because the religion in question isn't Christianity or Judaism. The religion being forced on the whole city of Hamtramck is Islam.

That council vote allows the seven mosques in the city to broadcast – over loudspeakers – the daily Islamic call to prayer.

In Arabic – five times a day, two to three minutes each time, between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m.

Hundreds jammed the meeting to object:


U.S. citizens shouldn't be subjected to the tenets of someone else's religion

it puts Islam above other religions

It's an invasion of privacy

It's forced religious indoctrination

the broadcasts are prayers – not like church bells, which are music

The arguments got nowhere and the reaction from Muslims was sadly predictable. They spoke of being "hated," others spoke of a shocking level of "intolerance." Objectors were called "Christian bigots."

They say it's their "religious freedom" and part of America. They say the sound of the call to prayer is no different from church bells, trains or even ice cream trucks! They say the call is Islamic tradition.

Remember what the council president said about "change"?

Hamtramck, surrounded by Detroit, was a Polish-Catholic enclave. Now, 41 percent of the population is foreign born and one-third is Muslim. Political petitions are printed in Polish, Bosnian, Arabic – and English.

Change, indeed.

The basic issue at stake goes beyond Hamtramck. It encompasses the mindset of immigrants. Do they become Americans following our Constitution, customs, mores and laws? Or do they establish their culture here, with Americans obliged to change to accommodate them, as their numbers increase.

Have no doubt: As they gain political clout, we'll see more of this.

Ms. Majewski is right. It is all about change.

But not all change is good. Change always occurs after you lose a war. Like it or not, this is another part of the war in which we're engaged. It's a culture war and we have a lot to lose. Everything, in fact.

SOURCE

The Fundies are upset because atheists and agnostics have not yet seen fit to step up to the plate and hit a homer for Christian hypocrisy. *

The fundies scream bloody murder when they can't have their Ten Commandments in a courthouse, distribute Bibles in public schools, or put up Nativity scenes in the town square. Why? Because they see it as an abridgment of their religious freedom. They feel that just because a forum is a public one, it's certainly not reason enough to limit their religious expression there. YET, let another religion seek the same freedom and the fundies cry foul. "Hey, what's these guys doin' bringin' in their foreign culture and all? If you're going to be a 'merican get in step or shut up. And their numbers are increasin'. Pretty soon there'll be a foreigner on every corner. The melting pot days are over kiddo."

"If we can't set up our plastic Jesus in the town square at Christmas, we sure don't want those infidels making any calls for worship we might have to listen to (Never mind our church bells ringing every Sunday morning, they're purddy). "what, you ask, about all our previous principled pronouncements about religious freedom when we were trying to keep prayer in the schools?" "Well, sure there was the principle of religious freedom we were fighting for, but that was for OUR religious freedoms, not these overly religious foreigners praying five times a day." If we can't exercise our religious freedom to put the Ten Cs in the court house we sure ain't going to let some foreigner exercise their phony rights" "And hey! where's the ACLU when you need them, anyway?"



* Personally, I think the practice of amplified calls to worship should be banned.

[The Laughing Man]

And amazingly enough, hyper-separationists are remarkably silent about this sort of thing. If this were Christian prayers being blared around town 5 times a day, the ACLU, Barry Lynn, and FFRF would file lawsuits within seconds. Yet where are they now?

You'd think that would be paramount to criticizing Christians about their hypocrisy. Oh, sure, you added a barely noticable, obligatory, one-sentence denouncement of the prayers at the end of your double-paragraph straw man rant. Wow. See, Minn, you only bring this up in an attempt to mock and ridicule the Christians you hate so much, but all it does is reflect back upon yourself and other hyper-separationists. If any of you were at all consistant with your ideals, you'd be right there along side the Christians in fighting these prayer broadcasts instead of being an opportunistic Christian-basher (as usual).

BTW, nice signature. Is that your half-vast attempt to emulate me?

[Captain Ochre]

Legally, I've got no problem with the broadcast Islamic prayers in a local community dominated by Islamic believers.
It's bad news nationally that an worldview potentially antagonistic to our culture and even government would flourish, but the principle of a local community setting its own standards for conduct--even "religious" conduct--is sound, IMHO.

[edit to add]
Just don't conflict with the sound ordinance.

[The Laughing Man]

All I can find in regards to the ACLU and the situation in Hamtramck are stories about the ACLU having a problem with the city's noise ordinance.

[Blemonds]

All I can find in regards to the ACLU and the situation in Hamtramck are stories about the ACLU having a problem with the city's noise ordinance.

If during one of the prayers the speaker slips and says God instead of Allah, the ACLU will be crawling down their backs.

[Tfbandie]

quick note before it gets too of track like last thread about this subject, the article says that what is broadcast is the 'call to prayer' not the actual prayer itself, but then it listed one of the complaints as 'it is prayer not music'. Is it a 'call to prayer' or is that the same as the actual prayer?

[Minnesota]

the ACLU, Barry Lynn, and FFRF would file lawsuits within seconds. Yet where are they now?

I wondered the same thing. Seems to me to be just as much a violation as Nativity scenes, et al. If they don't lodge a complaint I'll be very surprised and disappointed--based on what information we have.

Minn, you only bring this up in an attempt to mock and ridicule the Christians you hate so much

Mock and ridicule, certainly, they just about beg for it, but not hate. Oh yes, it's not all Christians, or even most that are such deserving targets, only those on the fundy fringe---but then I suspect you already knew this, and are just toying with me.

My signature? Hmmm............................................Nope, I think you're beyond emulation, Jinx. Do you really recognize yourself in it? I'll be darned. what a coincidence.


Captain Ochre

Obtrusive religious announcements, particularly those a person can't get away from, amount to noise pollution if nothing else, and most likely a form of religious promotion using public and private space without permission.

the article says that what is broadcast is the 'call to prayer' not the actual prayer itself, but then it listed one of the complaints as 'it is prayer not music'. Is it a 'call to prayer' or is that the same as the actual prayer?

It's just a call. The remark you're refering to was evidently made by someone at the meeting, ignorant of the fact.

[Captain Ochre]

what a coincidence.

Obtrusive religious announcements, particularly those a person can't get away from,

Like a great big billboard?

amount to noise pollution if nothing else,

If religious speech is "noise pollution" then non-religious speech at similar times and at similar volumes would be "noise pollution"--unless you're discriminating againt religious speech?

Did you want to go ahead and legislate your "noise pollution" rule for all communities, Your Highness?

and most likely a form of religious promotion using public and private space without permission.

Who gave permission to the Ice Cream Man to play that irritating music in my neighborhood?


I can't imagine you making a reasonable case in support of your claims.
I can imagine that I could imagine somebody else making a reasonable case in support of your claims.

[The Laughing Man]

If the ACLU, Barry Lynnand AU, FFRF or any other hyper-separationist group hasn't filed any lawsuits yet, I would be surprised if they ever will. These are "preemptive strike" people. You whinge about supposed Christian hypocrisy in this case, Minn, but you don't even look to your own paragons' hypocrisies, which is unsurprising.

You know, if I were living there, I'd just have my church schedule their bells or other music at the same time as the calls to prayer. Thassajoke, kids.

[PhilA]

[font=Verdana]

Minnesota]

Obtrusive religious announcements, particularly those a person can't get away from, amount to noise pollution if nothing else, and most likely a form of religious promotion using public and private space without permission.

What about adverts? Are they, as 'commercial announcements' a form of pollution? They are certainly a form of promotion. I don't remember giving my permission to be forced to see billboards I can't get away from.



What about large sporting events? Is a 50,000+ crowd cheering considered a form of pollution?



What about music concerts? Is Michael Jackson considered pollution? The whole idea of going on tour is to promote a record.



What about construction work? Lots of noise that you can't get away from come from construction work. Is that a form of pollution?



Are these possible forms of 'pollution' things we should ban or try and stop? Is all pollution bad?



Many things get shoved down our throats that we don't like. I don't like ads, I'm sick to the back teeth of this Euro 2004 football rubbish, and religious 'pollution' is no different.

[Harlequin Solit]

What about adverts? Are they, as 'commercial announcements' a form of pollution? They are certainly a form of promotion. I don't remember giving my permission to be forced to see billboards I can't get away from.



What about large sporting events? Is a 50,000+ crowd cheering considered a form of pollution?



What about music concerts? Is Michael Jackson considered pollution? The whole idea of going on tour is to promote a record.



What about construction work? Lots of noise that you can't get away from come from construction work. Is that a form of pollution?



Are these possible forms of 'pollution' things we should ban or try and stop? Is all pollution bad?



Many things get shoved down our throats that we don't like. I don't like ads, I'm sick to the back teeth of this Euro 2004 football rubbish, and religious 'pollution' is no different.

There are noise pollution laws...

[Captain Ochre]

There are noise pollution laws...

Right, and MN seems to have proposed one where religious content would qualify certain types of noise as noise pollution where they wouldn't otherwise qualify.

Good idea, IYO, or is that a problem for free speech?

[Durthorin]

I've seen and "heard" Christian street preachers with PAs, AMPs and bullhorns preaching fire and brimstone to the point local store owners call the police to complain. I also know the answer, "He's on public property and its religious speech, we can -ask- him to turn it down but thats about all." Most noise ordances are time based...,ie if he was preaching between Midnight and 6am, he'd get a fine.. Call to prayer and church bells fall in the same category.. a religious call to worship.


Danu Bless, Dur

[The Laughing Man]

/ot

My signature? Hmmm............................................Nope, I think you're beyond emulation, Jinx. Do you really recognize yourself in it? I'll be darned. what a coincidence.

Geez. How long have you been sitting on that response just waiting for me to comment on your sig? If it was more than a day, that's pretty pathetic.

[$cirisme]

What about music concerts? Is Michael Jackson considered pollution?