the problem with everlasting torment

[qbanpride]

if there is an everlasting torment in hell, do you see a problem with that doctrine? its not 500000 million years, 200000 billion years or even 23831298327 Gazillion years. at least with that theres the hope that after sometime, however long it is, you will get out. even if its so far off , but still theres the hope.

But no, its suppossedly eternal. Is there a crime that deserves that? Could God one day release some people in hell and give them a second chance.>? I mean if God is almighty, could not God do as he pleases?


just something that has me thinking. I cant fanthom an EVERLASTING punishment.

[FirstSunday33ad]

if there is an everlasting torment in hell, do you see a problem with that doctrine? its not 500000 million years, 200000 billion years or even 23831298327 Gazillion years. at least with that theres the hope that after sometime, however long it is, you will get out. even if its so far off , but still theres the hope.

But no, its suppossedly eternal. Is there a crime that deserves that? Could God one day release some people in hell and give them a second chance.>? I mean if God is almighty, could not God do as he pleases?


just something that has me thinking. I cant fanthom an EVERLASTING punishment.

You might want to check out some other threads on this subject, but if it will help:

1) You are thinking in a linier manner. But absent of time there is no "gazillion years" there is only "now". Hell does not exist in the natural universe; therefore there is no reason to think that there will be time in Hell.

2) The "torment" comes from within. It is the realization of a loss of hope and a squandered opportunity. There is no physical torment involved.

3) To deserve Hell a person has to have rejected God and wanted to be separate from God. How can this be done if they are in Heaven? Hell is the realization of their wishes and desires.

4) Hell's purpose is not to "punish" a "crime" in a literal sense. It is to provide a place for those who do not want God.

5) Although those condemned to Hell are not released, Hell itself is not eternal. Revelations states that it will be "cast into the Lake of Fire". There are those who suggest that the souls of the condemned are destroyed at that time. But that is a different subject that I am not familiar enough with to discuss.

[GoBahnsen]

if there is an everlasting torment in hell, do you see a problem with that doctrine? its not 500000 million years, 200000 billion years or even 23831298327 Gazillion years. at least with that theres the hope that after sometime, however long it is, you will get out. even if its so far off , but still theres the hope.

But no, its suppossedly eternal. Is there a crime that deserves that? Could God one day release some people in hell and give them a second chance.>? I mean if God is almighty, could not God do as he pleases?


just something that has me thinking. I cant fanthom an EVERLASTING punishment.

I saw your thread in Theo 201, thought I would see what you wrote. Don't look for dialogue with me here, I hang out in 201 mostly. God is Almighty, but He cannot violate His own Word. He has promised everlasting torment to every soul that is cast into hell. That is the end of the discussion. God never breaks His word. Let your inability to fathom a place of eternal punishment drive you closer to God's Savior. Don't question God's ways, just believe them. That's my advice.

[qbanpride]

You might want to check out some other threads on this subject, but if it will help:

1) You are thinking in a linier manner. But absent of time there is no "gazillion years" there is only "now". Hell does not exist in the natural universe; therefore there is no reason to think that there will be time in Hell.

2) The "torment" comes from within. It is the realization of a loss of hope and a squandered opportunity. There is no physical torment involved.

3) To deserve Hell a person has to have rejected God and wanted to be separate from God. How can this be done if they are in Heaven? Hell is the realization of their wishes and desires.

4) Hell's purpose is not to "punish" a "crime" in a literal sense. It is to provide a place for those who do not want God.

5) Although those condemned to Hell are not released, Hell itself is not eternal. Revelations states that it will be "cast into the Lake of Fire". There are those who suggest that the souls of the condemned are destroyed at that time. But that is a different subject that I am not familiar enough with to discuss.

yes it can be put in pretty terms such as there is not time in hell, just the now. but fact is, if the doctrine is true, that now is still forever. time is time.

[FirstSunday33ad]

yes it can be put in pretty terms such as there is not time in hell, just the now. but fact is, if the doctrine is true, that now is still forever. time is time.

Actually, I never found an "eternal now" as pretty, but to each his own. And as I stated, Hell is not forever, the Bible does state that at some time in the future Hell will be destroyed. There is a school of thought at says the souls of the condemned are also destroyed at that time.

However, even if they are not, each of us makes decisions according to our wishes and each of us enjoys rewards or suffers consequences as a result of those decisions. It is immature to demand the freedom to live as you please without consequence.

[Keller]

4) Hell's purpose is not to "punish" a "crime" in a literal sense. It is to provide a place for those who do not want God.

I disagree.

It seems quite clear from the descriptions of hell within the Bible that it is, indeed, a punishment. If its entire purpose was simply a place for those that "do not want" or do not believe in god, it would seem more likely that its descriptions would not be so aggressively terrifying and unpleasant.

The message is quite clear: either turn to god, or face literal and metaphorical spiritual punishment in the form of pain, hopelessness, and fear; all of which hell clearly embodies. Even if one were to view hell as not an actual place/realm but as a metaphorical torment, it is still quite clearly painted as a punishment for those who 'sin'.

[FirstSunday33ad]

I disagree.

It seems quite clear from the descriptions of hell within the Bible that it is, indeed, a punishment. If its entire purpose was simply a place for those that "do not want" or do not believe in god, it would seem more likely that its descriptions would not be so aggressively terrifying and unpleasant.

The message is quite clear: either turn to god, or face literal and metaphorical spiritual punishment in the form of pain, hopelessness, and fear; all of which hell clearly embodies. Even if one were to view hell as not an actual place/realm but as a metaphorical torment, it is still quite clearly painted as a punishment for those who 'sin'.

The use of the words "punishment for crime" are metaphorical, which is why Hell is described as a prison in the Bible.

The message of the Bible is also not "turn to God or else". It is "You have a choice, one choice which leads to Heaven and another which leads to Hell. You make that choice by your desires. Continue to live as a slave to your desires and you will end up in Hell".

Finally, Hell is not described as "aggressively terrifying and unpleasant" in the Bible, but simply as a place to avoid at all costs. In light of the fact that Hell represents an complete loss of hope, that alone is reason enough to want to avoid it.

[seer]

Don't question God's ways, just believe them. That's my advice.

Good advice GB:

Romans 5:18

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

[Ric]

if there is an everlasting torment in hell, do you see a problem with that doctrine? its not 500000 million years, 200000 billion years or even 23831298327 Gazillion years. at least with that theres the hope that after sometime, however long it is, you will get out. even if its so far off , but still theres the hope.

But no, its suppossedly eternal. Is there a crime that deserves that? Could God one day release some people in hell and give them a second chance.>? I mean if God is almighty, could not God do as he pleases?


just something that has me thinking. I cant fanthom an EVERLASTING punishment.

You choose in this life where you want to spend eternity.

What would be a worse "Hell"? Would it be in Hell spending in everlasting torment, or would it be with God for eternity where you did not want to go in the first place?

[jason]

But no, its suppossedly eternal. Is there a crime that deserves that?

Clearly the answer to your question is yes.

Could God one day release some people in hell and give them a second chance>? I mean if God is almighty, could not God do as he pleases?

How do you know, even if given such an opportunity, they would take it ? After all Hell is the place reserved for those who reject God. If they wont bend the knee in this life what makes you think they will in the next ?

C.S Lewis commented that he thought hells doors would be locked from the inside. I think he may be right, in a way.

The Orthodox Church (If I understand correctly) don't believe in Hell as a place as such, certianly not in the conventional sense people think of, but think everyone goes to be with God. The problem is that they are then forced to stand in the presence of a Holy God for all eternity and still being rebels and refusing the bow the knee they suffer for it. They are successful rebels to the end. That is why they flee to the outer darkness. Or at least that is what I thought was being said when it was explained to me.

Whatever hell is, after all the Bible uses a lot of different and sometimes contradictory imagery, it is somewhere you don't want to end up, and it is a place that is "easy" to avoid.

Incidentally, toughen up a bit, there is nothing unreasonable about hell being eternal. All things considered, if it was otherwise, God could not be God.

Jason

[Bernie]

God does not have to violate His nature to save everyone.

Rational Esotericism is the only belief which adequately explains the principles which lead to the conclusion that God in His love deflects eternality as punishment from the individual and places it squarely on the essence of evil. Salvation and damnation both take place in perfect justice wtihin the essence of each and every individual. It's really all a matter of interpreting the Bible using the dualistic structure of reality God created it in. Once understood, both Calvinism and Arminianism are reconciled, all are saved, and God's "honor" is left intact in all playing fields.

[mentored1]

Great thoughts... thanks for the brain food... I'd like to comment a bit if I may.

1) You are thinking in a linier manner. But absent of time there is no "gazillion years" there is only "now". Hell does not exist in the natural universe; therefore there is no reason to think that there will be time in Hell.

Okay... time is nothing more than a succession of cause and effect in a certain space... spacetime, perhaps. It is not measured other than by man's methods of measuring... But it still requires something to be in a state of change to be able to consider it time... So if all there is in hell is torment than change may not exist and neither may succession... or if it is no definite space than change cannot be measured at all... Either this makes hell way out of our league of consideration or makes it fictional...

Aside from that if something doesn't exist in the "natural" universe how can it even be considered for discussion? It remains only imagination and belief. I do not disparage a belief in hell - I do not presume to know of its existence or non-existence: but I doubt that absent of believing it hell can be demonstrated or grasped.

2) The "torment" comes from within. It is the realization of a loss of hope and a squandered opportunity. There is no physical torment involved.

While I grasp and accept what you say here this does not jive with the descriptions of hell in scripture where there is a smoke of torment ascending forever (revelation?) and the story of the rich man and the beggar lazarus in Luke (dip your finger in the water and cool your tongue)... If the intention was to convey a non-physical torment - especially to the average person - the result is not glowing.

3) To deserve Hell a person has to have rejected God and wanted to be separate from God. How can this be done if they are in Heaven? Hell is the realization of their wishes and desires.
4) Hell's purpose is not to "punish" a "crime" in a literal sense. It is to provide a place for those who do not want God.

It may just be a notion of theology but if you reject or accept Christ as savior and sacrifice for sin is that not the key to heaven or hell? It has nothing to do with wish or desire if that is it, it has to do with accept/reject... Again, I'm not disparaging your beliefs here and I may not be qualified to criticize... but the gospel I've experienced is just that... You are condemned and must be redeemed... by choice in Christ... You can use all the symbols you desire but you're still saying "choose or else"...

5) Although those condemned to Hell are not released, Hell itself is not eternal. Revelations states that it will be "cast into the Lake of Fire". There are those who suggest that the souls of the condemned are destroyed at that time. But that is a different subject that I am not familiar enough with to discuss.

Hell and death are cast into the lake of fire (along with all of those in them) but the Lake of Fire is not mentioned as being destroyed... The torment of those cast into it is without time... Again this is heavily swayed by one's interpretation of biblical prophecy / revelation as literal or symbolic... Like you perhaps there is a lack of familiarity

However, even if they are not, each of us makes decisions according to our wishes and each of us enjoys rewards or suffers consequences as a result of those decisions. It is immature to demand the freedom to live as you please without consequence.

The message of the Bible is also not "turn to God or else". It is "You have a choice, one choice which leads to Heaven and another which leads to Hell. You make that choice by your desires. Continue to live as a slave to your desires and you will end up in Hell".

Even if you demand that freedom it cannot be granted in the material world - never mind the spiritual. Cause and effect always require a reaction for action. That is irrelevant. What you say is perfectly applicable to materialism... but what of the spiritual? The only choice / consequence that matters is whether or not faith is placed in God or not... Again, perhaps the theological terms are different but its hard to understand where it doesn't come down (rubber meets the road) on "accept it on God's terms or else"...

Finally, Hell is not described as "aggressively terrifying and unpleasant" in the Bible, but simply as a place to avoid at all costs. In light of the fact that Hell represents an complete loss of hope, that alone is reason enough to want to avoid it.

I am honestly confuddled at this statement... Hell is to be avoided at all costs but is not terrifying and unpleasant? Having my arm chopped off is terrifying and unpleasant and I would say something to be avoided at all costs... Aren't you saying the same thing there? Loss of hope, if I understand scripture, implies loss of belief. Because in Hebrews 11(?) it is said that Faith is the evidence of things not seen; and that you cannot hope for something that is seen... Hope is belief, faith is acting on that hope... Loss of hope / belief is not choosing to have faith in God.... Again it comes down - unless I'm horribly mistaken - to 'God's way or the highway'...

Look forward to hearing back... Thanks again...

[mentored1]

God does not have to violate His nature to save everyone.

Rational Esotericism is the only belief which adequately explains the principles which lead to the conclusion that God in His love deflects eternality as punishment from the individual and places it squarely on the essence of evil. Salvation and damnation both take place in perfect justice wtihin the essence of each and every individual. It's really all a matter of interpreting the Bible using the dualistic structure of reality God created it in. Once understood, both Calvinism and Arminianism are reconciled, all are saved, and God's "honor" is left intact in all playing fields.

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[$cirisme]

I disagree.

If its entire purpose was simply a place for those that "do not want" or do not believe in god, it would seem more likely that its descriptions would not be so aggressively terrifying and unpleasant.

No, it is not more likely that hell would be less terrifying if it was "only" being separated from God. The whole point of Jesus' descriptions of hell is to draw a metaphorical comparison with what it is like to be separated from God.

No one one on Earth (except Jesus), even from a Biblical perspective, has ever experienced the total separation from God that hell creates.

It's not a fun experience, quite clearly, because every time separation from God is discussed, it is not done in a way that would lead you to believe that the description of hell is inconsistent.

Now, if you think that the description of hell is over-done from a human experience, then that's a subjective perspective. What's described in the Bible about hell's gruesomeness is entirely consistent with the description of separation from God.

But from a human perspective (which, btw, is skewed since no one on Earth except Jesus has ever experienced the total separation hell brings) it may seem over the top, but that isn't a valid comparison given the fact you've never experienced anything like it, so you have nothing to go by.

[mentored1]

Now, if you think that the description of hell is over-done from a human experience, then that's a subjective perspective. What's described in the Bible about hell's gruesomeness is entirely consistent with the description of separation from God.

While I understand your point here I think there is confusion with the use of subjective perspective... Assuming things about hell is objective... the object presupposes the subject and vice versa... The existence of hell is not independent of subject nor is the subject able to perceive hell unless it is an object... I don't pretend to know which is true... I'm only pointing out that it is impossible to discern if another person is being subjective or objective because each presuppose the other...

But from a human perspective (which, btw, is skewed since no one on Earth except Jesus has ever experienced the total separation hell brings) it may seem over the top, but that isn't a valid comparison given the fact you've never experienced anything like it, so you have nothing to go by.

Aren't you being subjective here? Have you experienced the conscious life of everyone on earth? If the human perspective is skewed then so is yours and thus your perspective on everything about what Jesus might have experienced... What other perspective do you recommend? Consequently you have never experienced anything outside of the human perspective so you have no idea if it is skewed or not...

Excellent points in your replies... Take care!