"Five Israeli talking points, debunked".... Interesting

[tabibito]

This is a blatant falsehood. Hamas and Hezbollah are not ISIS. The "N" bit is ISIS... besides, all the pictures I've seen are of red paint.

Sorry - I may have been mistaken in the comment about the particulars of the Muslim extremist group - I'll look into it a bit more and post an amendment or retraction as appropriate.

[Spartacus]

The number of deaths you are comparing are the deaths since the Israelis had enough vs the number of deaths before the sweep started.

Last I checked, Israel has lost some 53 soldiers and 2 civilians since this most recent outbreak of violence. Palestinian civilian casualties are higher.

The terrorists are dropping thousands of rockets on Israel. At some point it had to be dealt with.

They've been responding to the rocket and mortar attacks pretty much the same way for the past decade-- with aggressive aerial and artillery bombardments. To suggest that it's only NOW that Israel's getting around to dealing with it is disingenuous at best.

If this was anyone but Israel no one would have any complaints.

Can you demonstrate this point? Show me a comparable situation.

The injuries and fatalities since the sweep began are purely because the terrorists have used supposed civilians as shields. Warnings are given and people choose to stay or are forced to stay. Those deaths are on the terrorists not the Israelis.

The "evidence" you are using is bogus.

Tell me about the system Israel currently uses to warn the areas it's about to bombard.

[tabibito]

Last I checked, Israel has lost some 53 soldiers and 2 civilians since this most recent outbreak of violence. Palestinian civilian casualties are higher.

What would the toll have been before this sweep started if the terrorists entering Israel had not been found in time to prevent them from launching their planned attack, and what do you think triggered this latest sweep?


JERUSALEM — The call came to the cellphone of his brother’s wife, Salah Kaware said Tuesday. Mr. Kaware lives in Khan Younis, in southeast Gaza, and the caller said that everyone in the house must leave within five minutes, because it was going to be bombed.

A further warning came as the occupants were leaving, he said in a telephone interview, when an Israeli drone apparently fired a flare at the roof of the three-story home. “Our neighbors came in to form a human shield,” he said, with some even going to the roof to try to prevent a bombing. Others were in the stairway when the house was bombed not long afterward.

What hope does Israel have of minimising "civilian" casualties?

[tabibito]

Quite correct, I was misinformed - The group is ISIS, the character (for Christians) is "noon" and that for Muslims they don't like is "ra" (I think): And of course, just so no-one makes a mistake, they mark their own properties as well.
ISIS has begun marking Christian homes with the Arabic letter "n" which stands for the word "Nasrani" which means Christian in Arabic. The word comes from the name "Nestorian," historically attributed to the the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, though it is incorrect. In addition, properties marked by ISIS have also been marked as "property of the Islamic State."

ISIS has also marked Shiite homes with the letter "r", signifying "rwafidh" (rejecters).

Many of these (Sunni extremist) Islamists now make up the ranks of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), which has successfully conquered several key cities in Iraq, including Mosul and Tikrit. They are fighting to wrest control of Iraq away from the “infidel” Shi’ite majority.

The real danger of Baghdad falling to ISIS, an offshoot of al-Qaida, is not only a devastating blow to the US, which invested more than a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives in liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein’s murderous regime between 2003 and 2011,but it is a threat to the stability throughout the region.

[tabibito]

Hmmmm... One of the most compelling triggers for ground action: What happens when Israel runs out of resources to maintain the Iron Dome?

http://www.westernjournalism.com/say...u-double-take/

[Sparko]

The Israelis are using military force disproportionate to the threat to their security and to the lives of their own citizens. It doesn't matter how terrible or even omnicidal their opponents would be if they had similar resources at their disposal. The simple fact is that Israel is gratuitously murdering noncombatants.

Isn't God just?


Didn't he once command the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child of the Canaanites when they came to the promised land? Why did he command such a thing?

[tabibito]

The Israelis are using military force disproportionate to the threat to their security and to the lives of their own citizens. It doesn't matter how terrible or even omnicidal their opponents would be if they had similar resources at their disposal.

2005 - (I think it was) - Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip - forcibly evicting settlers. Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians with fully functional infrastructure. Hamas simply bulldozed it - including glass houses and then settled in to raining rockets on Israel. There is no pretending that Hamas has any interest in a free and peaceful land for as long as Israel exists.

Hamas knows well how to conduct a seige. They send in low cost rockets by the thousands, with no particular target selected. If they hit something important, well and good. If they don't - no matter. To protect its citizens, Israel has to use high cost ABMs - the "iron shield". Problem arises when Hamas sends in enough rockets (as they have been) to outstrip Israel's capacity to replenish the iron shield. Sooner or later, Israel will have no ABMs, and Hamas will have unfettered opportunity to fire missiles instead of rockets, with no risk of interception by an ABM. Nothing in Israel will be safe from attack, the country will be wide open and defenceless.

Perhaps you can explain what makes Israel's response "disproportionate" - seems more like a matter of fight or die to me.

[Sparko]

If Cuba was constantly attacking the Eastern USA, I am willing to bet that pretty soon there would be no Cuba. Just look what happened when we even thought there was a threat of that back in the 1960's. A country has the right to protect it's citizens with force, even overwhelming force.


I think Israel has shown some pretty good restraint in attacking Palestinian civilians. They don't specifically target civilians. They target hostiles and in urban locations like those that the hostiles hide in, some civilian casualties will occur. Unlike Hamas, who specifically target civilians.

[Cow Poke]

The Israelis are using military force disproportionate to the threat to their security and to the lives of their own citizens.

So, what's the correct proportion number of Jews who should be killed?

It doesn't matter how terrible or even omnicidal their opponents would be if they had similar resources at their disposal. The simple fact is that Israel is gratuitously murdering noncombatants.

That's a blatant falsehood.

[tabibito]

[Spartacus]

So, what's the correct proportion number of Jews who should be killed?

You first. How many Palestinian civilians can the IDF kill as collateral damage to kill a single terrorist if killing that one terrorist saves the life of one Israeli citizen?

That's a blatant falsehood.

See, when I say something like that, I provide evidence to back it up

[Spartacus]

Isn't God just?


Didn't he once command the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child of the Canaanites when they came to the promised land? Why did he command such a thing?

Honestly, I've not spent a great deal of time thinking about that part of the OT. If you have, I'd like to hear your explanation.

[Spartacus]

Hmmmm... One of the most compelling triggers for ground action: What happens when Israel runs out of resources to maintain the Iron Dome?

I have no problem (aside from my more general concerns about foreign aid) with America funding the Iron Dome indefinitely.

[Teallaura]

The Israelis are using military force disproportionate to the threat to their security and to the lives of their own citizens. It doesn't matter how terrible or even omnicidal their opponents would be if they had similar resources at their disposal. The simple fact is that Israel is gratuitously murdering noncombatants.

This is pure nonsense.

Weeks in and multiple cease fires later - why are there any civilians even still IN the Gaza? They are surrounded by supposedly sympathetic nations - why haven't they been evacuated if the Hamas/PA union actually cares about civilian casualties? They've had time and opportunity to get civilians out - but haven't done so. Why?

[Darth Executor]

Honestly, I've not spent a great deal of time thinking about that part of the OT.

What a shock.

I can't even comprehend how you can talk about Just War theory without having dealt with OT warfare... oh wait, yes I can, because people who never read the OT (or had any practical experience with warfare for that matter) would come up with something as stupid as Just War.