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"Five Israeli talking points, debunked".... Interesting

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  • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    No, I'm not. You are. Which is why your citations are incoherent, and why I want to know where you're getting this stuff.

    Repeating a faceplant doesn't make it any prettier.

    Here, repeat after me:

    Ayah ... verse
    Surah ... chapter
    Um lao... How do I explain this? I mentioned that surah 9 was regarded as being the last one revealed. You came back and said surah 5:3 was. Surah 5:3 is an ayah. You know, a verse. I was talking about the last surah. You know, a chapter.

    Where am I getting it? I noted one source if you actually read my post. Al-Bukhari, or properly, Sahih al-Bukhari. The most revered of all the hadiths, regarded by many Muslims as being scripture.

    The only thing I shouldn't have said was that "all" Muslims regard surah 9 as the last one revealed. That is debated. Many think it was surah 110.

    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    Got it? Keep it straight. And never ever again try to pretend you knew the difference.

    Dang.
    Indeed my friend. Indeed.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • You assert without any proof that the aerial and artillery bombardments are effective tactics both from a strategic and financial standpoint.
      What I assert is that sustained rocket launches will sooner or later outstrip the country's capacity to sustain defence - which makes offensive action, BEFORE that time, unavoidable. Unit cost might be higher, but assume $1 000 000 for a single bombing mission .... equivalent to 15 or 16 ABMs. If it destroys a stock pile of 50 rockets, that is a net saving of ... more than $2 000 000
      Just trying to make the point that, as with your earlier ISIS/Hamas conflation, you're not doing as much research as you should. If I have to deliberately providing you with the evidence you need to make your points, you've got a serious problem.
      Just as you do, I venture opinions. If my opinions don't stand up to scrutiny, I adjust them. I'll even allow the possibility, on the basis of no evidence so far being provided, that you might do the same.
      As for the ISAS/HAMAS conflation ... I'm pretty sure that I'll make the same kind of mistake again some time. And I am equally sure that someone with an agenda will make as much capital as possible out of it.

      Stealth bombers cost almost twice as much as ordinary bombers, coming in at $135 000 per hour. So - taking a Stealth Bomber's costs as base line, and assuming a four hour mission, at least double the time that a raid from Israel to Gaza could be expected to take - a single bombing mission would cost all of $540 000. Less than the cost of 9 ABMs - of course, a more realistic estimate would put it at around 3 ABMs.
      Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2014, 02:59 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        There's a story that says Ali had an actual listing of the ayah in the order they were revealed, and there are plenty of ayah that can be easily placed in the correct temporal order, but outside of that, different scholars support different timing. Different scholars give different takes on which ahadith are sahih as well.

        If you cite the Bible, you cite chapter and verse, right? If you're citing ahadith, you need to do the same. I'm not familiar with the one you're citing. Ref, please.

        As ever, Jesse
        16:101 And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. Pickthall.

        2:106 Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? Pickthall.

        17:86 And if We willed We could withdraw that which We have revealed unto thee, then wouldst thou find no guardian for thee against Us in respect thereof. Pickthall.

        These are just a few in support of abrogation. As for the ahadith of Mohammed and being "made victorious through terror".

        Narrated Abu Huraira:
        Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)

        And as rogue06 pointed out, it's pretty much unanimous that the 9th sura came last, and it has the most explicit of verses dealing with jihad.

        I should have put all this up last night, but I posted while getting ready for bed. I figured I could just get the information in the morning if you asked for sources, or figured someone else could fill it in for me.

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        I do believe this is correct. Studies to date suggest that the Islam of today is not what it was before Turkish converts decided that pogroms were an acceptable practice.
        The Quran has the commands to do so long before then, and Mohammed was involved in his own battles against the kafirs.

        (2) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah." (Book #52, Hadith #280)

        While Mohammed gave the judgment to another, he obviously approved of it.

        ETA: This Muslim source on on the order each surah was revealed. http://www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm
        ETA2: Okay, unanimous that surah 9 came late, not last. It does seem to be unanimous that it was a Medinan surah though.
        Last edited by Cerebrum123; 07-31-2014, 03:41 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          16:101 And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. Pickthall.

          2:106 Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? Pickthall.

          17:86 And if We willed We could withdraw that which We have revealed unto thee, then wouldst thou find no guardian for thee against Us in respect thereof. Pickthall.

          These are just a few in support of abrogation. As for the ahadith of Mohammed and being "made victorious through terror".

          Narrated Abu Huraira:
          Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)

          And as rogue06 pointed out, it's pretty much unanimous that the 9th sura came last, and it has the most explicit of verses dealing with jihad.

          I should have put all this up last night, but I posted while getting ready for bed. I figured I could just get the information in the morning if you asked for sources, or figured someone else could fill it in for me.



          The Quran has the commands to do so long before then, and Mohammed was involved in his own battles against the kafirs.

          (2) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah." (Book #52, Hadith #280)

          While Mohammed gave the judgment to another, he obviously approved of it.
          Tis a bit difficult to evaluate without some sort of background to work on.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Tis a bit difficult to evaluate without some sort of background to work on.
            I can understand that, it took me a long time before I could figure out what was what with Islam. I think that this place is a good start.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              I can understand that, it took me a long time before I could figure out what was what with Islam. I think that this place is a good start.
              Interesting, but that isn't what I meant. All that is provided here, is the decision to execute the men of a given place, and enslave the rest. But what is the background ... Who were the people? What were the circumstances of their fight (?) and capture?
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Interesting, but that isn't what I meant. All that is provided here, is the decision to execute the men of a given place, and enslave the rest. But what is the background ... Who were the people? What were the circumstances of their fight (?) and capture?
                Whoops, I was thinking of another thread where I had given the links on this. Here.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  Whoops, I was thinking of another thread where I had given the links on this. Here.
                  Thankee
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    That is the way to keep him coming. The only way to stop a bully is to stand up to him.
                    "

                    When I was a kid, one of my older brothers used to pester me mercilessly. (Besides Rogue, that is) My Mom said, "he'll never stop that til you stand up to him". So, one day, I was coming down the stairs, and he was going up, and he made an ugly, and I just, out of utter frustration, punched him hard right in the face, and he fell back, rolling down the stairs. He was absolutely shocked.

                    We've been best friends ever since.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • You know, if some street gang decided to use my neighborhood to stage attacks on the police, and the police fought back and some bullets started flying through my house, I think I would move till the fight was over rather than complain about the police shooting back at the street gang and hitting my house in the process. Either that or get my shotgun and actually help the police get rid of the street gang.

                      Comment


                      • One of the things that bothers me about all this is that it appears the only reason this is getting so much attention is that Israel is fighting back. If Israel stopped retaliating and just endured the bombardment indefinitely, it doesn't seem like anybody would care. Spartacus seemingly admitted to this.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          One of the things that bothers me about all this is that it appears the only reason this is getting so much attention is that Israel is fighting back. If Israel stopped retaliating and just endured the bombardment indefinitely, it doesn't seem like anybody would care. Spartacus seemingly admitted to this.
                          Hold up there, cowboy-- my issue is not with the fact that Israel is fighting back (I've not said a word on the ground offensive), but the fact that Israel's continued aerial and artillery bombardments seem to be pointless if not counterproductive.
                          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            Hold up there, cowboy-- my issue is not with the fact that Israel is fighting back (I've not said a word on the ground offensive), but the fact that Israel's continued aerial and artillery bombardments seem to be pointless if not counterproductive.
                            Ok--my mistake. I'll just go back to lurking on this one.
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                              Hold up there, cowboy-- my issue is not with the fact that Israel is fighting back (I've not said a word on the ground offensive), but the fact that Israel's continued aerial and artillery bombardments seem to be pointless if not counterproductive.
                              by the time they could send in ground troops in response to a rocket launch, the terrorists would be long gone. And they would just set traps for the ground troops after they drew them in.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                by the time they could send in ground troops in response to a rocket launch, the terrorists would be long gone. And they would just set traps for the ground troops after they drew them in.
                                That's not what, in my understanding, the current ground offensive is about. You're not responding to my points in the slightest.
                                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                                Comment

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