Earthquakes aplenty

[steamer]

Matthew says after the death of Jesus:

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I have a few questions about these verses.

1. Why did 3 out of 4 of the Gospel writers fail to mention this earthquake and the supernatural events?

2. At this part of the story Jesus is just dead and hasn’t been resurrected yet.

Another earthquake apparently occurred later which was also not mentioned by 3 out of 4 of them.

[kendemyer]

An omission is not a contradiction.

[steamer]

An omission is not a contradiction.

Let's say you and 3 friends go to a world series game and there was no earthquake. 10 years later you are talking to someone and he says he was at that game. He mentions the big earthquake. His statements about being there have lost credibility.

If there had been a great earthquake and you and your friends wrote home about the big game, how likely is it that any of you would have ommitted that little detail.

To most people, this points to a lack of credibility. All of the writers should have mentioned the great quake at Jesus's death and the dead people walking around. This should've been really big news.

[CatholicSage]

It was actually relatively small news compared to the death of the Son of God.

[Sparko]

How about extra biblical evidence for darkness and earthquakes at the time Jesus died?

Phlegon, 13th book of Olympiad Chronicles

"Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (32-33 AD), a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour (noon) that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."

© source where applicable

[steamer]

It was actually relatively small news compared to the death of the Son of God.

• Edited by a Moderator •

No, it's actually not small news. It's huge evidence not mentioned by 3 of 4 writers.

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[steamer]

How about extra biblical evidence for darkness and earthquakes at the time Jesus died?

Phlegon, 13th book of Olympiad Chronicles

"Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (32-33 AD), a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour (noon) that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."

© source where applicable

Eclipses have a path of limited area and there would have been an eclipse in any case. Some exclipses do appear darker than others depending where you are on the path.

[shunyadragon]

It was actually relatively small news compared to the death of the Son of God.

Neither were reported outside the Bible. No one else seemed to report the resurrected dead walking around the city.

[shunyadragon]

How about extra biblical evidence for darkness and earthquakes at the time Jesus died?

Phlegon, 13th book of Olympiad Chronicles

"Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (32-33 AD), a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour (noon) that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."

© source where applicable

This reference is not considered to be at the time that the events occured and refer to them as recorded in the gospel.

[shunyadragon]

How about extra biblical evidence for darkness and earthquakes at the time Jesus died?

Phlegon, 13th book of Olympiad Chronicles

"Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (32-33 AD), a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour (noon) that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."

© source where applicable

Here is a more detailed response to this claim found in:

http://members.iglou.com/nomad/religion/Debate1.html

Phlegon too, I think, has written in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles.'" Note that Origen admits that either it is his own thinking that Phlegon mentions it, or that he only thinks but isn't sure that Phlegon wrote it. Not something upon which I would base a claim of factual information. I am still not sure where this fits in with the disciples' claims. (1) Phlegon makes no mention of disciples, only an eclipse and earthquake that were too far away to have been experienced significantly in Jerusalem. (2) As Origen only thinks, he is admitting he isn't even sure what Phlegon wrote and isn't even working from a copy of the text in front of him, but only memory. (3) Origen, in his commentary on Matthew (according to Richard Carrier, I was unable find the passage), attests that Phlegon doesn't say that the eclipse happened during a full moon, which, of course, would have been a natural impossiblity, as Jesus, according to the Gospels, was crucified during Passover, which is always celebrated during a full moon. Thus, unless I am missing something, you are basing your evidence from this particular quote on Origen's memory, an event that took place 500 miles from Jerusalem, and no extant version of what Phlegon's actual words were, merely Christian quotations in defense of their beliefs. Not objective reporting necessarily. It must also be remembered that Phlegon wrote during the 140s, many years after the supposed resurrection. Even if he did refer to Jesus or his disciples specifically, he certainly could've just based it on the Gospel accounts which would mean, of course, that this isn't an extra-biblical source for your facts but a bibical one. So, please show me where Phlegon, or at least Origen and Africanus citing Phlegon, mentions anything of the disciples. Until then, I shall consider this aspect of your argument to have been successfully refuted, unless I haven't been clear on something (I've been bouncing around reading both your posts, Origen's text, and responses to similar claims such as yours so I might've gotten off track somewhere in my statements).

[Sparko]

Eclipses have a path of limited area and there would have been an eclipse in any case. Some exclipses do appear darker than others depending where you are on the path.

First, do you have evidence that there was a real 'scheduled' eclipse at that time and place? I think there was a full moon at the time of Jesus crucifixion, and there could not have been a total eclipse during a full moon (only a new moon). So, if the Darkness was supernatural it doesn't have be in a limited area, It could have been world wide. And what about the earthquake mentioned? It could have been world wide also.

Usually it is the skeptics complaining that even though all of the gospels agree on such and such, there is no extra biblical support for it. This time it is the polar opposite. Ironic, isn't it?

Here is another possible report (or it might not be):

From www.carm.org

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

1. 1. "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
   2. Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."
      
   3. The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been. [but it might have been if the darkness was supernatural and not from an eclipse - JohnSparks]
      
   4. Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
      

[shunyadragon]

First, do you have evidence that there was a real 'scheduled' eclipse at that time and place? I think there was a full moon at the time of Jesus crucifixion, and there could not have been a total eclipse during a full moon (only a new moon). So, if the Darkness was supernatural it doesn't have be in a limited area, It could have been world wide. And what about the earthquake mentioned? It could have been world wide also.

Usually it is the skeptics complaining that even though all of the gospels agree on such and such, there is no extra biblical support for it. This time it is the polar opposite. Ironic, isn't it?

Not ironic, just no records.

Here is another possible report (or it might not be):

Might be probably is no cigar. Later records of eclypses and others by Christians who get the information from the gospel can hardly count.

Because of the full moon no eclypse is possible that would create any darkness. The event would have to be super natural and not an eclypse.

[Sparko]

Here is a more detailed response to this claim found in:

http://members.iglou.com/nomad/religion/Debate1.html

Phlegon too, I think, has written in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles.'" Note that Origen admits that either it is his own thinking that Phlegon mentions it, or that he only thinks but isn't sure that Phlegon wrote it...

I wasn't quoting Origen. I was quoting Eusebius who quoted Phlegon verbatum. This was admitted by Richard Carrier (a known skeptic) which is where I found the quote to begin with.

Here is the what Richard Carrier wrote about it:

Richard Carrier

Eusebius quotes Phlegon verbatim (the only one to do so), and what Phlegon actually said is telling--the text is attested in Syncellus in the original Greek, but also in the Latin of Jerome, the Syrian epitome, and the Armenian:

Jesus Christ..underwent his passion in the 18th year of Tiberius [32 AD]. Also at that time in another Greek compendium we find an event recorded in these words: "the sun was eclipsed, Bithynia was struck by an earthquake, and in the city of Nicaea many buildings fell." All these things happened to occur during the Lord's passion. In fact, Phlegon, too, a distinguished reckoner of Olympiads, wrote more on these events in his 13th book, saying this: "Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [32 AD], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour [noon] that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea."

© source where applicable

Carrier was skeptical because Jesus was not mentioned by Phlegon (huh?) - and said something similar to what Steamer said about an eclipse not being seen from both Bithynia and Jerusalem. But no one said it was actually a natural eclipse. That is just the naturalistic explanation Phlegon came up to explain what he saw.

[Sparko]

Not ironic, just no records.

But I just posted the "records"?

Later records of eclypses and others by Christians who get the information from the gospel can hardly count.

huh? I don't understand what you are saying here.

Because of the full moon no eclypse is possible that would create any darkness. The event would have to be super natural and not an eclypse

DING! DING! DING! And if it was supernatural, that would explain how it was seen all the way in greece.

What would some greek think if the sun went dark? He would assume it was a great eclipse. That doesn't mean it really was, and the fact that there was a full moon means it wasn't a natural eclipse.

1. There was an unusual darkness and earthquakes (at the time Jesus died), as attested by a greek writer who knew nothing about Jesus.
2. There was a full moon so the darkness could not be an eclipse.
3. Therefore, it was a miracle.

[shunyadragon]

But I just posted the "records"?


huh? I don't understand what you are saying here.

As cited these are not reliable records. Nothing was recorded in Jeruselum at the time and there were people keeping records.


[quote] DING! DING! DING! And if it was supernatural, that would explain how it was seen all the way in greece. [quote]

DING! DING! The event was recorded not witnessed in Greece, it was a record of an earthquake and eclypse in Nicea. An eclyse in Nicaea may or may not have been visible in Greece.

What would some greek think if the sun went dark? He would assume it was a great eclipse. That doesn't mean it really was, and the fact that there was a full moon means it wasn't a natural eclipse.

Eclypses are common and known and would not be confused with a supernatural darkness. Greeks and everyone else knew eclypses do not occur on a full moon and they would not assume it was an eclypse.

I responded to Phelgon's reference in detail documenting that it was not a reliable reference. I do not know Carrier, a known skeptic or not. I can provide other comments by scholars if needed on the reliability of the account.

These are all second-hand very questionable and later references and none were made in Jeruselum or the area at the time.