Holy Trinity

[apostoli]

Three is one, one is three impossible to understand, it is a fairy tale. It is entirely non scriptural.

Were Adam and Eve to become one flesh? Genesis 2:24 says so...Jesus says so (Mt 19-56 cp. Mk 10:8; Eph 5:31). Contrary to your speculation the concept is entirely scriptural of two or more being one (cp. Jn 17:23)

Have a read of Ephesians 5:30-32 to get an inkling of what A.Paul calls "a great mystery".

[beanfarmer]

I've pored over it for a long time looking.

Give me a good example?

Barnasha, I have given you many examples in other threads but you have ignored most and given the standard Islamic response which ignores the evidence. Like when you said monogenes means unique dispite the definition or etymology or usage.

And the many places in the New Testament like John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

"13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Here we see the son of man decended from heaven. That means he existed before he was born, most likely. Something no human can claim at least in the Bible and that is what we are talking about not Islamic philosophy which has as little to do with the Bible as reincarnation has to do with the Qu'ran.

" 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Here we have the word monogenes translated only son. Monogenes means
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
In addition it is said that believing in him will save you. You believe in God not a prophet to get saved. Remember it says he not what he taught.

" 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Here it is said that anyone who doesn't believe in the only son of God is condemmed. Let's sum up.
1. He decended from heaven which means he was alive before he was born.
2. He is the only son of God.
3. Belief in him will save you in eternal life and disbelief will condemn you.

Sounds like God to me.

[barnasha]

Barnasha, I have given you many examples in other threads but you have ignored most and given the standard Islamic response which ignores the evidence.

What does "Islamic response" mean?

If Muslims tend to agree with my points, does that make them invalid?

If you are reading my responses through the lens of "Islam" then its no wonder there is a communication problem...

And the many places in the New Testament like John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

I don't need more examples of people finding validation of post-biblical concepts in the bible. I am well aware that the arguments for the trinity doctrine are based on scriptural "evidence" that their doctrine is valid.

I am unwilling to make up or buy into beliefs which require maintenance to validate. I am more interested in the truth. If the trinity means something to you, so be it.

I possess the ability to consider many trinities, and none stray me from the path. Jesus taught to love your neighbor, nothing about trinities. So I try my best to stick to his teachings - I am willing to accept the consequences for doing so.

[infide]

Would someone please explain the Holy Trinity for me.

The Holy Trinity is a pragmatic, compromise doctrine which was invented to explain, doctrinally, how Jesus could be God.

The Jesus of history never claimed to be God except in a limited power-sharing sense, a sense in which all humans can be God.

The Holy Spirit was simply another of the many names for God.

In it's "orthodox" formulation the Trinity is formulated as a divine paradox - 1 God substance that had three co-existing personalities. Each personality could be called God, but not to the exclusion of the other two personalities. One formulation called Social Trinitarianism taught (more logically) that only the collection of all three personalities truly instantiated the divine nature (as a whole), but that each person could still be called God in the sense of being a part of this divine being.

[profitofgloom]

The Jesus of history never claimed to be God . . .

.

Yes, He did.

[barnasha]

Yes, He did.

Only if you interpret what he said figuratively with a lot of extra reasoning... unlike other things he said which explicitly go against that interpretation.

"Yes, he did say he was God. Just read all the Church's arguments for proof!"

[infide]

Yes, He did.

I said the Jesus of history. That's in so far as we can deduce anyhow. The divinity of Jesus clearly and obviously grew and became embellished. Compare the earliest Christian sources in Pauls letters and the Gospel called Mark versus the Gospel John, and there can be no question. Jesus the God came to be so over time.

Peace,
JD

[OneSizeFit]

Paul demonstrates some pretty top heavy Christology.

Still I think the original meaning is more or less over everyone's heads 2000 years after the fact.

[barnasha]

Paul (mostly) explains things very clearly, unfortunately, most people read Paul through the lens they were handed during indoctrination.

The flowery language of Paul that has been "doctrinized" is way more important to most than the actual teachings Paul gave.

[beanfarmer]

I said the Jesus of history. That's in so far as we can deduce anyhow. The divinity of Jesus clearly and obviously grew and became embellished. Compare the earliest Christian sources in Pauls letters and the Gospel called Mark versus the Gospel John, and there can be no question. Jesus the God came to be so over time.

Peace,
JD

JD, you are overlookng parts of the New Testament like John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

"13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Here we see the son of man decended from heaven. That means he existed before he was born, most likely. Something no human can claim at least in the Bible and that is what we are talking about not Islamic philosophy which has as little to do with the Bible as reincarnation has to do with the Qu'ran.

" 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Here we have the word monogenes translated only son. Monogenes means
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
In addition it is said that believing in him will save you. You believe in God not a prophet to get saved. Remember it says he not what he taught.

" 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Here it is said that anyone who doesn't believe in the only son of God is condemmed. Let's sum up.
1. He decended from heaven which means he was alive before he was born.
2. He is the only son of God.
3. Belief in him will save you in eternal life and disbelief will condemn you.

Sounds like God to me. I have more if you want them if that is not enough to convince you that the writers of the Gospels thought Jesus said he was divine and you are also ignoring 1st century archaeology that proves early christians thought Jesus was God. Like .....
From http://www.christiananswers.net/dict...capernaum.html

The house was built at the very end of the Hellenistic period (first century B.C.). In the second half of the first century A.D. some peculiar features set apart this building from all the others so far excavated in Capernaum. Here, in fact, the pavements received floors of lime several times. Interesting enough, many pieces of broken lamps were found in the thin layers of lime. …One hundred and thirty-one inscriptions were found. They were written in four languages, namley: in Greek (110), Aramaic (10), Estrangelo (9), and Latin (2).

The name of Jesus appears several times. He is called Christ, the Lord, and the Most High God. An inscription in Estrangelo mentions the Eucharist.

There are also symbols and monograms, namely: crosses of different forms, a boat, the monogram of Jesus.
peace
dfattig

[barnasha]

JD, you are overlookng parts of the New Testament like John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

"13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Here we see the son of man decended from heaven. That means he existed before he was born, most likely. Something no human can claim at least in the Bible and that is what we are talking about not Islamic philosophy which has as little to do with the Bible as reincarnation has to do with the Qu'ran.

" 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Here we have the word monogenes translated only son. Monogenes means
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
In addition it is said that believing in him will save you. You believe in God not a prophet to get saved. Remember it says he not what he taught.

" 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Here it is said that anyone who doesn't believe in the only son of God is condemmed. Let's sum up.
1. He decended from heaven which means he was alive before he was born.
2. He is the only son of God.
3. Belief in him will save you in eternal life and disbelief will condemn you.

Sounds like God to me. I have more if you want them if that is not enough to convince you that the writers of the Gospels thought Jesus said he was divine and you are also ignoring 1st century archaeology that proves early christians thought Jesus was God. Like .....
From http://www.christiananswers.net/dict...capernaum.html

The house was built at the very end of the Hellenistic period (first century B.C.). In the second half of the first century A.D. some peculiar features set apart this building from all the others so far excavated in Capernaum. Here, in fact, the pavements received floors of lime several times. Interesting enough, many pieces of broken lamps were found in the thin layers of lime. …One hundred and thirty-one inscriptions were found. They were written in four languages, namley: in Greek (110), Aramaic (10), Estrangelo (9), and Latin (2).

The name of Jesus appears several times. He is called Christ, the Lord, and the Most High God. An inscription in Estrangelo mentions the Eucharist.

There are also symbols and monograms, namely: crosses of different forms, a boat, the monogram of Jesus.
peace
dfattig

I guess it's too obvious to be taken seriously to point out that the trinity does not appear in the text?

[infide]

JD, you are overlookng parts of the New Testament like John 3 where the most reasonable explaination is the theological construct of the trinity.

"13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Here we see the son of man decended from heaven. That means he existed before he was born, most likely. Something no human can claim at least in the Bible and that is what we are talking about not Islamic philosophy which has as little to do with the Bible as reincarnation has to do with the Qu'ran.

" 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Here we have the word monogenes translated only son. Monogenes means
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
In addition it is said that believing in him will save you. You believe in God not a prophet to get saved. Remember it says he not what he taught.

" 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Here it is said that anyone who doesn't believe in the only son of God is condemmed. Let's sum up.
1. He decended from heaven which means he was alive before he was born.
2. He is the only son of God.
3. Belief in him will save you in eternal life and disbelief will condemn you.

Sounds like God to me. I have more if you want them if that is not enough to convince you that the writers of the Gospels thought Jesus said he was divine and you are also ignoring 1st century archaeology that proves early christians thought Jesus was God. Like .....
From http://www.christiananswers.net/dict...capernaum.html

The house was built at the very end of the Hellenistic period (first century B.C.). In the second half of the first century A.D. some peculiar features set apart this building from all the others so far excavated in Capernaum. Here, in fact, the pavements received floors of lime several times. Interesting enough, many pieces of broken lamps were found in the thin layers of lime. …One hundred and thirty-one inscriptions were found. They were written in four languages, namley: in Greek (110), Aramaic (10), Estrangelo (9), and Latin (2).

The name of Jesus appears several times. He is called Christ, the Lord, and the Most High God. An inscription in Estrangelo mentions the Eucharist.

There are also symbols and monograms, namely: crosses of different forms, a boat, the monogram of Jesus.
peace
dfattig

Hey dfattig -

I am not ignoring texts like that but highly suspicious of their origin. First of all, it is a big stretch to say that this text teaches the Trinity as formulated at Nicea. But even if it did, the origins of such late texts are spurious in intent (the purpose of these types of texts is not to report theological or historical truths, but to proselytize the established religion and are also so far removed from the events they purport to describe as to make it much more likely to be reporting on some circulating religious ideas, then eyewitness testimony.

Peace,
JD

[beanfarmer]

Hey dfattig -

I am not ignoring texts like that but highly suspicious of their origin. First of all, it is a big stretch to say that this text teaches the Trinity as formulated at Nicea. But even if it did, the origins of such late texts are spurious in intent (the purpose of these types of texts is not to report theological or historical truths, but to proselytize the established religion and are also so far removed from the events they purport to describe as to make it much more likely to be reporting on some circulating religious ideas, then eyewitness testimony.

Peace,
JD

what texts are you not supicious of? Perhaps we can work with them? Did you know John is the earliest book we have fragments of the john rylands is dated to about 125 AD. "The style of the script is strongly Hadrianic, which would suggest a most probable date somewhere between 117 CE and 138 CE. But the difficulty of fixing the date of a fragment based solely on paleographic evidence allows a much wider range, potentially extending from before 100 CE past 150 CE." It could be the very Gospel John wrote.
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands...ry_Papyrus_P52

[barnasha]

what texts are you not supicious of? Perhaps we can work with them? Did you know John is the earliest book we have fragments of the john rylands is dated to about 125 AD. "The style of the script is strongly Hadrianic, which would suggest a most probable date somewhere between 117 CE and 138 CE. But the difficulty of fixing the date of a fragment based solely on paleographic evidence allows a much wider range, potentially extending from before 100 CE past 150 CE." It could be the very Gospel John wrote.
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands...ry_Papyrus_P52

Curious, what makes you think John wrote the gospel of John?

[beanfarmer]

Curious, what makes you think John wrote the gospel of John?

if you are asking me if I can prove John wrote it, I can not. It also can not be proven that aristotle wrote his stuff or that josephus wrote his works. You can not prove any 2000 year old document was written by. So you make an educated guess. We have thousands of manuscripts dated before 300ad that agree with john that Jesus was divine and died for the sins of man and few that dissagree. And we have archaeology to back up that early christians believed he was God. And very little to refute it.

From http://www.christiananswers.net/dict...capernaum.html

The house was built at the very end of the Hellenistic period (first century B.C.). In the second half of the first century A.D. some peculiar features set apart this building from all the others so far excavated in Capernaum. Here, in fact, the pavements received floors of lime several times. Interesting enough, many pieces of broken lamps were found in the thin layers of lime. …One hundred and thirty-one inscriptions were found. They were written in four languages, namley: in Greek (110), Aramaic (10), Estrangelo (9), and Latin (2).

The name of Jesus appears several times. He is called Christ, the Lord, and the Most High God. An inscription in Estrangelo mentions the Eucharist.

There are also symbols and monograms, namely: crosses of different forms, a boat, the monogram of Jesus. The name of St. Peter occurs at least twice: his monogram is written in Latin but with Greek letters. In another graffito St. Peter is called the helper of Rome.