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  • #46
    In this we would appear to have a problem.

    Jesus said Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

    Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.


    Now it needs to be asked whether, (Matthew 5:17) Christ did not succeed in what he had come to do. And whether, for some reason (Hebrews 8:13) the first covenant was not made obsolete.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

    The law could not make perfect those who approached, but Christ can do so. While the first law stood, the second and more perfect law could not be initiated. This is the explanation provided by the letter to the Hebrews.

    Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you

    Moses' blood of the covenant, that of calves and goats, has been replaced with Jesus' blood of the covenant, that of grapes. (wine = blood of grapes: Genesis 49:11, Deuteronomy 32:14) Where Moses' blood was sprinkled on the person, Jesus' blood is consumed by the person. There are fundamental differences in the rites associated with purification, and those differences are profound.

    Your point regarding the final judgement day would seem to be the fulfilment of the second covenant. Even Heaven and Earth themselves pass away, to be replaced by a new Heaven and Earth.
    Last edited by tabibito; 08-14-2014, 06:02 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      In this we would appear to have a problem.

      Jesus said Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

      Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.


      Now it needs to be asked whether, (Matthew 5:17) Christ did not succeed in what he had come to do. And whether, for some reason (Hebrews 8:13) the first covenant was not made obsolete.

      Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

      The law could not make perfect those who approached, but Christ can do so. While the first law stood, the second and more perfect law could not be initiated. This is the explanation provided by the letter to the Hebrews.

      Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you

      Moses' blood of the covenant, that of calves and goats, has been replaced with Jesus' blood of the covenant, that of grapes. (wine = blood of grapes: Genesis 49:11, Deuteronomy 32:14) Where Moses' blood was sprinkled on the person, Jesus' blood is consumed by the person. There are fundamental differences in the rites associated with purification, and those differences are profound.

      Your point regarding the final judgement day would seem to be the fulfilment of the second covenant. Even Heaven and Earth themselves pass away, to be replaced by a new Heaven and Earth.
      4Ezr 7:12-And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; they are few and evil, full of dangers and involved in great hardships.4Ezr 7:13- But the entrances of the greater world are broad and safe, and really yield the fruit of immortality.4Ezr 7:14- Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them.

      New Testament:
      Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."


      4Ezr 7:20-Let many perish who are now living, rather than that the law of God which is set before them be disregarded!4Ezr 7:21- For God strictly commanded those who came into the world, when they came, what they should do to live, and what they should observe to avoid punishment.

      New Testament:

      “I have not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets,” he did not mean that each specific law would stay exactly the same. He meant that the purpose and message of the Law and the Prophets remain exactly the same. The Law and the Prophets pointed to him and were intended from the beginning to be fulfilled by him."

      and,"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."



      This is the last point to make - In Genesis, when God revealed himself to Abraham and made a covenant with him, there was no mention of a deliverer nor was there any mention of the Israelites receiving the law at Sinai. However, the beginnings start at that point - the law was received but it (obviously) didn't end at Sinai - did it? The law was to take another step - and that's where John proclaims that the law was "given" at Sinai (the first step) but grace and truth gave "through" Jesus Christ (2nd step). This God takes steps - he continually works, ""My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working."

      The gentiles (as Paul said) are now grated in to the covenant. The expansion touched us through Christ - when I look at the cross I see that he included "all of us" at a high price.

      Comment


      • #48
        No argument with that.

        4 Ezra - Now reading it with interest.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          No argument with that.

          4 Ezra - Now reading it with interest.
          The best passage that I read was for the intercession of the sinner. Esdras (Ezra) presents a good case for the angel because he states the need to pray for the sinner in the same way Abraham did, as well as, Moses for the Israelite after the they sinned of the golden calf. Abraham, as stated, said if there be but 50 righteous will you not spare the city for their sake? The passages read: (as a comparison)

          14 If then you will suddenly and quickly destroy what with so great labor was fashioned by your command, to what purpose was it made? 15 And now I will speak out: About all humankind you know best; but I will speak about your people, for whom I am grieved, 16 and about your inheritance, for whom I lament, and about Israel, for whom I am sad, and about the seed of Jacob, for whom I am troubled. 17 Therefore I will pray before you for myself and for them, for I see the failings of us who inhabit the earth; 18 and now also I have heard of the swiftness of the judgment that is to come. 19 Therefore hear my voice and understand my words, and I will speak before you." The beginning of the words of Ezra's prayer, before he was taken up. He said: 20 "O Lord, you who inhabit eternity, whose eyes are exalted and whose upper chambers are in the air, 21 whose throne is beyond measure and whose glory is beyond comprehension, before whom the hosts of angels stand trembling 22 and at whose command they are changed to wind and fire, whose word is sure and whose utterances are certain, whose command is strong and whose ordinance is terrible, 23 whose look dries up the depths and whose indignation makes the mountains melt away, and whose truth is established forever— 24 hear, O Lord, the prayer of your servant, and give ear to the petition of your creature; attend to my words. 25 For as long as I live I will speak, and as long as I have understanding I will answer. 26 O do not look on the sins of your people, but on those who serve you in truth. 27 Do not take note of the endeavors of those who act wickedly, but of the endeavors of those who have kept your covenants amid afflictions.


          What did King Solomon say at the dedication?

          36“When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near; 37and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly’; 38and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their captivity where they were taken, and pray toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and toward the temple I have built for your Name; 39then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their pleas, and uphold their cause. And forgive your people, who have sinned against you.


          and, the Apostle Paul said (basically the same):

          No One Is Righteous

          9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

          “There is no one righteous, not even one;

          11there is no one who understands;

          there is no one who seeks God.

          12All have turned away,

          they have together become worthless;

          there is no one who does good,

          not even one.”

          13“Their throats are open graves;

          their tongues practice deceit.”

          “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

          14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

          15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

          16ruin and misery mark their ways,

          17and the way of peace they do not know.”

          18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

          19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


          The law can't save but it can do and when you read 2 Timothy 3 - it basically has the same conviction as Esdras during the last days:


          4 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
          Last edited by mitzi; 08-18-2014, 04:01 AM.

          Comment


          • #50
            The law can't save but it can do and when you read 2 Timothy 3 - it basically has the same conviction as Esdras during the last days:
            If you're saying that the law had the potential to save, I would agree. However, being violated at any time and in any way, it has the power only to condemn.
            Given that all men who are in the flesh do sin, the potential to save was never met in practice.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              If you're saying that the law had the potential to save, I would agree. However, being violated at any time and in any way, it has the power only to condemn.
              Given that all men who are in the flesh do sin, the potential to save was never met in practice.

              Right - I think the Apostle Paul spoke about this, "23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". There is another verse that I think comes closest to your comment, "13 Now, did something good bring me death? Of course not! But in order that sin might be recognized as being sin, it used something good to cause my death, so that through the rule, sin might become more exposed as being sinful than ever before. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am merely human,sold as a slave to sin. 15 I don’t understand what I am doing. For I don’t practice what I want to do, but instead do what I hate. 16 Now if I practice what I don’t want to do, I am admitting that the Law is good. 17 As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me."

              There was another section in the book of wisdom - and in a roundabout way - it might connect.

              "When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Numbers 21:5-7).

              God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God's plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief.

              Once the people did get healed when they looked at the serpent, and the image was kept for many years. Many years later, when the Israelites were in the Promised Land, the serpent became an object of worship (2 Kings 18:4)."

              Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/bronze-s...#ixzz3AojWteRy
              Now in the book of wisdom it states this:

              Affliction struck them briefly, by way of warning, and they had a saving token to remind them of the commandment of your Law, 7 for whoever turned to it was saved, not by what he looked at, but by you, the Saviour of all.

              8 And by such means you proved to our enemies that you are the one who delivers from every evil;

              The Law - guides and instructs, The word "halakhah" is usually translated as "Jewish Law," although a more literal (and more appropriate) translation might be "the path that one walks." The word is derived from the Hebrew root Hei-Lamed-Kaf, meaning to go, to walk or to travel.

              The foundation of Judaism is the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, sometimes referred to as “the Five Books of Moses”). "Torah" means "instruction" or "teaching," and like all teaching it requires interpretation and application. Jewish tradition teaches that Moses received the Torah from God at Mount Sinai. The Torah is replete with instructions, directives, statutes, laws, and rules. Most are directed to the Israelites, some to all humanity. Halakhah: Jewish Law

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                If you're saying that the law had the potential to save, I would agree. However, being violated at any time and in any way, it has the power only to condemn.
                Given that all men who are in the flesh do sin, the potential to save was never met in practice.
                The law had to the potential to keep a person/people from sinning but the question was is how could you live with 613 mitzvot (commandments). At the beginning of this thread I brought up the verse of the Rich man who had followed the law - however, the one commandment he couldn't follow was to sell everything he had to follow Christ, the "Come follow me". That's when the apostles had asked the question, "who then can be saved" even Peter said to the Lord we had left everything we had - so what about us? The remark that came from Jesus was the same at the time of his arrest "And he said, “Father, my Father, you can do everything; let this cup pass from me, yet not my own will, but yours.”

                Again, and thinking back on the conversation, what you're saying is that the law "when/if anyone violates it" can not wash way or cover up sin? Kind of like that verse with the blind man (in away), "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him." - The Pharisees Investigate the Healing

                The story to me now is incredible - there are parts to that story I have to smile at, "That man answered and said, “This is therefore to be marveled at, that you do not know from where he is and he opened my eyes.”

                Comment


                • #53
                  Again, and thinking back on the conversation, what you're saying is that the law "when/if anyone violates it" can not wash way or cover up sin?
                  That is my assessment of the situation, yes. "the law was deficient"
                  Heb 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
                  Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.


                  A number of passages make similar comments.

                  What question was Jesus answering? "Who sinned that this man was born blind?" "Neither he nor his parents sinned" (that he was born blind). This is an answer, not a statement, and it addresses the outcome from a particular hypothesised sin.

                  Yup - the uneducated man who had been born blind knew where Jesus was from, but the learned members of the Sanhedrin didn't. Kind of ironic, really. The same continues today, and perhaps more so. There is a lot of opposition to the idea (Hebrews 10:1) that Christ actually does make perfect those who approach.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    That is my assessment of the situation, yes. "the law was deficient"
                    Heb 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
                    Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.


                    A number of passages make similar comments.

                    What question was Jesus answering? "Who sinned that this man was born blind?" "Neither he nor his parents sinned" (that he was born blind). This is an answer, not a statement, and it addresses the outcome from a particular hypothesised sin.

                    Yup - the uneducated man who had been born blind knew where Jesus was from, but the learned members of the Sanhedrin didn't. Kind of ironic, really. The same continues today, and perhaps more so. There is a lot of opposition to the idea (Hebrews 10:1) that Christ actually does make perfect those who approach.
                    The comment from the apostles was about Jesus Healing a Man Born Blind but from what understanding? Can sin be carried over to the next generation - again, you and I both understand that the law (and as Moses said)

                    1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

                    3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


                    and, this comes from:

                    10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.

                    11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: `Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: `Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

                    15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      What question was Jesus answering? "Who sinned that this man was born blind?" "Neither he nor his parents sinned" (that he was born blind). This is an answer, not a statement, and it addresses the outcome from a particular hypothesised sin.

                      Yup - the uneducated man who had been born blind knew where Jesus was from, but the learned members of the Sanhedrin didn't. Kind of ironic, really. The same continues today, and perhaps more so. There is a lot of opposition to the idea (Hebrews 10:1) that Christ actually does make perfect those who approach.
                      Was it believed that sin could inflict a person physically? Or even that you could tell the type of ailment by the sin? Using slandering as an example - As it says (Mishlei 18:21) “Death and life depend on the tongue.” The very first transgression committed in the world was when the evil inclination approached Eve in the form of a snake and enticed her to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The snake slandered G’d Himself and said, (Bereishis 3:4-5) “You will for sure not die [if you eat from the tree] but G’d knows that on the day that you eat from it your eyes will open up and you will be like G’d knowing good and evil.” Rashi quotes from the Midrash Rabbah (Bereishis 19:4) that the snake said: “Every craftsman hates his competitors. G’d ate from the tree and created the world.” The snake indicated that the reason that G’d did not want them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was because He did not want them to become like G’d. This was pure slandering and it caused death to Adam and Eve and to all their descendants. This is the very nature of the evil inclination and the biggest challenge that man has been given to overcome.


                      Lashon hara:
                      The noun lashon, "tongue", followed by the definite article ha and the adjective ra, "evil". The Hebrew noun lashon means "tongue", and as in many languages, "speech" or "language". The phrase is generally translated as "evil speech".

                      In Numbers chapter 12, Miriam gossips with her brother Aaron. She questions why Moses is so much more qualified to lead the Jewish people than anyone else. God hears and strikes her down with tzaraath. Miriam had to stay outside of the camp for a week due to the tzaraath. During this time, all of Israel waited for her.

                      **The noun form comes from the verb tzara (צָרַע) which means "to have a skin disease." The linguistic root of tzaraath may mean "smiting", in comparison with Arabic, in reference to a Talmudical explanation that it serves as a punishment for sin;[1] it is quite possible that tzaraath was a general term for certain types of skin disease, rather than a particular condition,[2] and the Talmud maintains a similar view, arguing that tzaraath referred generally to any disease that produces sores and eruptions on the skin.[3]

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        What sin(s) were associated with blindness? Is there any information available?

                        With regard to tzara, I believe that the same term was used for stone or brick structures that were degenerating (salt damp, for example) - could be wrong though.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          What sin(s) were associated with blindness? Is there any information available?

                          With regard to tzara, I believe that the same term was used for stone or brick structures that were degenerating (salt damp, for example) - could be wrong though.
                          There must have been a sin that was associated with blindness, yes - or - the fact that the boy was blind from birth indicated a sin from the perspective that the parents were to be blamed. Another thought on the Matriarches where the Lord had closed their womb or they were barren, "And Sarai was barren; she did not have a child. (Genesis 11:29-30) and then, "And Sarai said to Avram: "Behold, God has prevented me from giving birth. Please come to my handmaid, perhaps I will be built up through her." (Genesis 16:2)



                          Was it after God changed her name that she was able to then conceived? Some see things as sins, however, as Jesus said, "so that the works of God might be displayed in him.…" - (or to display a miracle through that person - or Matriarch)
                          Last edited by mitzi; 08-25-2014, 02:18 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            What sin(s) were associated with blindness? Is there any information available?

                            With regard to tzara, I believe that the same term was used for stone or brick structures that were degenerating (salt damp, for example) - could be wrong though.
                            Blindness: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...3_0_03089.html

                            I looked up the word "ivver" blindness - and there are some very good articles about the subject but here's a small example: The word Oyr, "skin" is related to Ivver, "blind person" because in his diminished, fallen state, his body now took on a layer of skin. It became a veil rather than a reflector to reveal the divine in the universe.

                            The word "iver" is used as followed:

                            17.putting a stumbling-block in the way of the blind, that is to say, tempting another to sin (Lifnei iver);

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