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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Do Mormons Still Believe Smith will be "checking passports" in Heaven?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think Seven is your typical radical gungho fully cult-ized fanatic who is so Mormon he's no earthly good.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think he was raised in an isolated mormon community and then heard about this "interwebz" thing and decided that he would go forth and convert the heathen and they would all fall in line and believe everything the LDS has taught him. From his responses, it doesn't look like he ever gave his religion much thought or reflection.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostKinda like how JW's will believe the WTS despite the inconsistency over the years? What happens if you put a Mormon and a JW in the same room? They both claim to be the OneTrueChurchtm.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI actually don't run into any JWs anymore --- maybe they're a dying breed.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostThere could be psychological reasons too. Cults often make newcomers feel loved and accepted and later use manipulation to make them stay.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into "rag on cults."Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostSorry, I didn't mean to turn this into "rag on cults."The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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7up wrote: The interpretation identified Peter into the mythology because Peter is the person who asked Christ in Matt 19:28,
Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhy can't you just admit that you were wrong on this? Huh? The "Peter at the pearly gates" was never a doctrine of the church. No one teaches that we need Peter's permission to get to heaven.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThe thief on the cross believed nothing other than that Jesus could lead him to paradise. There is no indication that he followed Torah or anything resembling Moses' teachings. Yet, he was still told that he would be with Christ in paradise that very day. He did not need baptism, temple ordinances, or belief in any prophet's word on the matter. Just Jesus.
7up wrote: Many of the tribes have since been scattered around the world, particularly the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostNo they won't. They will be judged by the actions of the Apostles in believing in Messiah that was sent from God. That's the plumb line that Israel will be judged by, and that's what Jesus meant that they would judge Israel.
If the people reject the testimony given of Christ, which is given by the apostles and provided in the New Testament, then that will result in judgment. Likewise, LDS believe that those who reject Joseph Smith and all he revealed about the kingdom of God, then that will result in judgement. The concept is the same.
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)"
7up wrote: Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God. The ticket/pass is accepting the revelation of God and Christ as given through Joseph Smith, just as it was with the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd that is completely bogus. The "ticket" is faith in God to provide a Savior. It has nothing to do with "accepting revelation".
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIt must be nice to be able to excuse his pretty clear comments about the ”sphere” that Joseph is now “ruling in” now, and that we must “pass by” his sphere first. So, is it poetic that Joseph is ruling in his “sphere”? Brigham made it clear that without believing in Joseph Smith in his “sphere”, we can never pass on to where God is. Do you deny that is true? Can we attain to where the Father is without believing in Joseph Smith first?
7up wrote: I say , "its an archetype". Then you respond, "No, you are wrong, it is a 'type'". And then you turn around and call me an ass? Sure Bill, sure.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostNo, you arrogant jerk. You said “I will try to use smaller words for you next time.” For THAT, I called you an ass. And the shoe fits.
7up wrote: I gave Noah and Moses as examples. Like how Moses taught in his dispensation that those who looked to the serpent on a pole would live. This was a "type" (Alma 33:19) or similitude of the Savior. Those who didn't obey Moses and would not look, didn't live.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostExcept not everyone was bitten by snakes. Only those who were poisoned were told to look.
7up wrote: Accepting what Moses said in that dispensation was the "passport" to life and salvation.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostNo it wasn’t. It was always faith in God.
7up: That is exactly the picture you were painting, as if it were literal. Even the idea of literally stopping by Joseph Smith is not an accurate portrayal. It is a portrayal that you would like to present to people who don't know any better. That isn't the concept being presented by Brigham and you know it. Again, Brigham explained what he meant in that same sermon: "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAbsolute nonsense. The picture I am “painting” is that we have to believe in Joseph Smith to make it to where the Father is. And Brigham claimed that Joseph was “in his sphere reigning” JUST LIKE GOD WAS IN HIS. And that we would have to appear before Joseph in his sphere first. I’ve linked the article from lds.ord for anyone to confirm.
7up wrote: That isn't what Brigham meant either. The concept is the same as receiving God's truth through prophets as found in the Bible. As the Lord said to the apostles, "He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matt. 10:40). Brigham is applying the same concept to the "last dispensation".
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAgain, I say bologna. Jesus will not be asking… “Did you believe Joseph Smith’s words”? He will be asking the same question He asked of Peter… “Who do you say that I am?”
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIf we believe He is, and He is a rewarder of those that seek Him, We need nothing from Joseph Smith.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd that furthers my point. Brigham claims that we have to be baptized under Joseph’s authority in order to “enjoy a kingdom”. Another clear indication that Brigham was claiming that in order to “endure the presence of the Father”, one had to get permission from Joseph Smith and his authority.
7up wrote: Of course you have misrepresented what BY said. Now you have softened your stance, but you are still misrepresenting. Now you are saying that people have to literally stop by Joseph on the way to Heaven. Brigham never said that.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostActually, yes he did. However, I do admit that it is ambiguous enough to claim it as poetic license. But the basic point remains, whether Brigham was speaking literally or not. According to him, one has to believe in Joseph Smith in order to attain to where the Father is.
7up wrote: As you can see, Brigham Young is referring to a preaching of the gospel which has been delegated by Christ to Joseph Smith, to those who are on the Earth and those spirits who are yet to be resurrected. Those who accept this truth receive the "consent" of Joseph Smith, but Brigham is clear that it is all "under the directions of the Son of God"
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOf COURSE Brigham would say that. No one suggested that he claimed Joseph was acting on his own.
Chapter 50: “For This Cause Was the Gospel Preached Also to Them That Are Dead” - The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, (1979), 414–19 .... Jesus Christ Began the Glorious Work for the Dead during His Visit to the Spirit World
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostI have linked ONLY to pro-lds sources, so your offhanded red herring is easily dismissed as desperation.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View Post7up wrote: The interpretation identified Peter into the mythology because Peter is the person who asked Christ in Matt 19:28,
Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I agree with you; the concept of a man standing at a literal gate is not actually Christian doctrine. The concept of God delegating judgement to the apostles IS Christian doctrine. The imagery that some Christians used of Peter at the "pearly gates" is just something that plays off of the scripture seen above. Nobody should have ever understood that there are actual "pearly gates" Bill, that is just symbolism.
This just reveals another fundamental misunderstanding that Christians tend to have about the spirit world. It is not the same as Heaven.
The spirit world is a temporary place where people await the resurrection.
That is where Christ said he would see the thief on the cross. Christ did not go to Heaven, to the Father, during the 3 days awaiting the resurrection. The thief did not gain entrance to God's presence at that time either.
7up wrote: Many of the tribes have since been scattered around the world, particularly the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles.
Not everyone was present for the actions of the apostles, and they did not witness it.
That is why I wrote above, "The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles."
If the people reject the testimony given of Christ, which is given by the apostles and provided in the New Testament, then that will result in judgment.
Likewise, LDS believe that those who reject Joseph Smith and all he revealed about the kingdom of God, then that will result in judgement. The concept is the same.
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)"
7up wrote: Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God. The ticket/pass is accepting the revelation of God and Christ as given through Joseph Smith, just as it was with the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles.
It does have to do with accepting revelation. If you rejected the Old Testament prophets who received revelation, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jeremiah, etc. , then it resulted in judgment. If the people in New Testament time rejected the revelation given by the apostles, then it resulted in judgment.
I already provided the context. Brigham Young is talking about the spirit world, where Christ has organized a great missionary work. Brigham Young said that Joseph Smith is there, "under the direction of the Son of God", and Christ has delegated to Joseph the work on that side of the veil for those who will receive temple ordinances. Christ is in charge, and Brigham Young said so right there in the text. To answer your question, no, you cannot attain to where the Father is if you reject Noah, Abraham, Paul, Peter, Moses, or anyone else who testified of Christ. That is why Christ says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me." (John 13:20)
7up wrote: I say , "its an archetype". Then you respond, "No, you are wrong, it is a 'type'". And then you turn around and call me an ass? Sure Bill, sure.
It was you who was being arrogant and a jerk first, so I snipped back at you.
Go look at my original comment about "archetype" then look how you responded. It is there for anyone to see.
7up wrote: I gave Noah and Moses as examples. Like how Moses taught in his dispensation that those who looked to the serpent on a pole would live. This was a "type" (Alma 33:19) or similitude of the Savior. Those who didn't obey Moses and would not look, didn't live.
Being "poisoned" is representative of being tainted by sin. And looking was representative of accepting the Savior Jesus Christ. The point is that this revelation came through Moses, the prophet.
7up wrote: Accepting what Moses said in that dispensation was the "passport" to life and salvation.
Yes, but God didn't go down there personally to tell each person what to do. The instructions were given to Moses, the prophet, and he passed those instructions on to the people. It is God delegating to human leaders, just like God has always done. Hence we see the scripture, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)
7up: That is exactly the picture you were painting, as if it were literal. Even the idea of literally stopping by Joseph Smith is not an accurate portrayal. It is a portrayal that you would like to present to people who don't know any better. That isn't the concept being presented by Brigham and you know it. Again, Brigham explained what he meant in that same sermon: "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).
Again, the context clearly shows Brigham Young explaining that Joseph is in the spirit world doing delegated duties, "under the direction of the Son of God".
The same is true for other prophets.
That is why "paradise" is also known as "Abraham's bosom", because Abraham has his sphere of delegated duties as well.
The concept is entirely consistent with scripture, and that drives you crazy.
7up wrote: That isn't what Brigham meant either. The concept is the same as receiving God's truth through prophets as found in the Bible. As the Lord said to the apostles, "He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matt. 10:40). Brigham is applying the same concept to the "last dispensation".
If a man was living in Corinth and Paul went there preaching the gospel and that man rejected the message of the Saviour, then you better bet that Christ will ask, "Why did you reject my chosen messenger to you?"
1 Cor 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Notice that Paul does not claim that by rejecting him, or Apollos, or Cephas, that they were rejecting Christ. His rebuttal was that all 3 were preaching the same Gospel, and as such, all who were taught under them were members of the same body.
And surely the Jews said, "we need nothing from Peter, James , Paul, Matthew, etc."
You don't understand the theology. The kingdoms of glory are not given until the "final judgement" at the end of the millennium. You still seem to think that Christ and the thief went to be with God the Father right after dying on the cross. You are wrong, and you contradict the scriptures.
7up wrote: Of course you have misrepresented what BY said. Now you have softened your stance, but you are still misrepresenting. Now you are saying that people have to literally stop by Joseph on the way to Heaven. Brigham never said that.
You don't get it. The spirit world doesn't just have Joseph Smith. ALL of the Old Testament prophets are there; and the New Testament apostles. They are "under the direction of the Son of God". Hence we read, 1 Peter 4:6 "but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."
And 1 Peter 3:19 "Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison".
7up wrote: As you can see, Brigham Young is referring to a preaching of the gospel which has been delegated by Christ to Joseph Smith, to those who are on the Earth and those spirits who are yet to be resurrected. Those who accept this truth receive the "consent" of Joseph Smith, but Brigham is clear that it is all "under the directions of the Son of God"
That is the picture that Anti-Mormons, like yourself attempt to paint.
You, when presenting to your audience, make it sound like it will be a one on one encounter with Joseph Smith.
However, the context of the greater work of all the apostles and prophets in the spirit world "under the direction of the Son of God" is entirely left out,
which is why you, like so many anti-Mormons before you, are a big deceiver.
You purposefully misrepresent what LDS theology is actually teaching.
If people really want to know what LDS believe, they will read further; not just the snippets and distortions that you provide:
Chapter 50: “For This Cause Was the Gospel Preached Also to Them That Are Dead” - The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, (1979), 414–19 .... Jesus Christ Began the Glorious Work for the Dead during His Visit to the Spirit World
Only real truth seekers will read further. I am not sure if there are many to be found on your forum here.Last edited by Bill the Cat; 11-03-2014, 11:52 AM.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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7up wrote: The interpretation identified Peter into the mythology because Peter is the person who asked Christ in Matt 19:28,
Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ... I agree with you; the concept of a man standing at a literal gate is not actually Christian doctrine. The concept of God delegating judgement to the apostles IS Christian doctrine. The imagery that some Christians used of Peter at the "pearly gates" is just something that plays off of the scripture seen above. Nobody should have ever understood that there are actual "pearly gates" Bill, that is just symbolism.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAs I said, it was not the church who invented the symbolism. But yours invented the Joseph Smith one at the highest level.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostChristians understand how the spirit world works. Before Christ overcame death, all spirits went to the underworld. The righteous were in a place of rest called Abraham's bosom while the damned were in hell, a place of torment. There was no crossing between them.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhen Jesus died, He descended into the underworld, proclaimed His victory to those who were in hell, and then freed those who were in Abraham's bosom, taking them to heaven with Him. Now, when one dies, they either go to heaven or to hell. So your quip here serves no purpose.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThe Lord is seated on His throne right now, is He not? And that throne is in heaven, is it not? And when we die, we are present with the Lord, if we are His, are we not?
7up: That is where Christ said he would see the thief on the cross. Christ did not go to Heaven, to the Father, during the 3 days awaiting the resurrection. The thief did not gain entrance to God's presence at that time either.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostHe went when Christ opened up heaven after His resurrection. But regardless, the wicked did not go to paradise. Those in paradise were those who were saved. And all they needed was Jesus. They did not need anyone else but Him.
7up wrote: Many of the tribes have since been scattered around the world, particularly the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles. Not everyone was present for the actions of the apostles, and they did not witness it.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThat is absolutely irrelevant. The faith the Apostles displayed was the type that a Jew had to display to attain eternal life. If an Israelite did not display the faith the Apostles displayed (i.e. faith in God and His savior), they were found lacking. Hence the faith displayed by the Apostles served as the plumb line against which all Israel was judged.
7up: That is why I wrote above, "The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles." If the people reject the testimony given of Christ, which is given by the apostles and provided in the New Testament, then that will result in judgment.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostI get where you are going with this. And for the most part, I agree.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOk.
7up wrote: Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God. The ticket/pass is accepting the revelation of God and Christ as given through Joseph Smith, just as it was with the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. It does have to do with accepting revelation. If you rejected the Old Testament prophets who received revelation, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jeremiah, etc. , then it resulted in judgment. If the people in New Testament time rejected the revelation given by the apostles, then it resulted in judgment.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOk. I think we have been talking past each other, so I am willing to concede the point you are making. But I do not accept the premise that Joseph Smith revealed anything of truth about anything of a spiritual nature.
So, LDS leaders were essentially saying that, from the Mormon point of view, Gentiles and Israelites who rejected the apostles in the New Testament church are in the same condition as modern people who reject Joseph Smith.
But it is more than that. We believe that the spirit world ("prison and paradise") are still in function, and Christ is at the head of a great missionary work there for those who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ during mortality.
The idea is that those who did not have the opportunity to hear of the gospel of Christ in this life, will have an opportunity in the spirit world. Those who lived in the dispensation of Abraham are delegated to him under the direction of Christ. Those who lived in New Testament times who died having not heard the gospel of Christ are delegated under the authority of the Twelve Apostles in the spirit world, and those in the last dispensation are to hear about the gospel under the delegated authority given by Christ to Joseph Smith. And even beyond that, the temple work initiated by God through Joseph Smith will extend all the way back throughout human history, which will allow people to accept the baptism for the remission of sins which DOES allow access to God the Father.
So, from the LDS perspective, those who reject these messengers (whether in mortality or in the spirit world) will be "judged" by them in the same sense that Christ says that the Apostles will judge. Those who reject the offer for baptism, which again was initiated by God through Joseph Smith, will face judgment.
That is the point of view being given by these LDS leaders you cited. To present it in any other way, regardless of whether or not you agree with the doctrines, is dishonest.
I will have to get to the rest of your post later.
-7upLast edited by seven7up; 12-06-2014, 03:32 AM.
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostYou don't have scriptural evidence to back up everything you said here.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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