Do Mormons Still Believe Smith will be "checking passports" in Heaven?

[Cow Poke]

So, bottom line... Smith won't be checking passports -- he'll be trying to figure out how to get himself past the gate.

[Bill the Cat]

So, bottom line... Smith won't be checking passports -- he'll be trying to figure out how to get himself past the gate.

Nope. He has a date with a rather upset judge, and it doesn't look good for him...

[Christianbookworm]

Nope. He has a date with a rather upset judge, and it doesn't look good for him...

And the Judge is Someone you really don't want to have upset at you...

[Cow Poke]

And the Judge is Someone you really don't want to have upset at you...

Which is why I have a really good Attorney on my side, and I don't have to worry about what Joseph Smith says or does, IF he's even there.

(My Attorney happens to be the Judge's only son, and the Judge thinks He can do no wrong! )

[Christianbookworm]

Which is why I have a really good Attorney on my side, and I don't have to worry about what Joseph Smith says or does, IF he's even there.

(My Attorney happens to be the Judge's only son, and the Judge thinks He can do no wrong! )

He never did anything wrong! Though the Judge never thinks incorrectly either. I bet He knows we're talking about Him too!

[seven7up]

7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.

Well, in the first place, the Apostles were called by Christ, and Smith was not.

The thread is talking about how LDS view this. We were not talking about what you think of Smith.

Also, we are talking about the meaning of what was said by LDS leaders, rather than Bill's straw man version of it.


-7up

[seven7up]

7up wrote: As previously mentioned by many LDS apologists, this is similar to the Christian image of Peter at the "pearly gates," who opens and closes the gate to admit people in or not, according to the righteous judgments of God.

Just going to address this for a second...

This misunderstanding of Peter goes back to an early medieval interpretation that identified Peter with a figure in Germanic mythology who was the porter of heaven. The Church didn't originate this, but your church originated the nonsense of Joseph Smith at the highest level.

The interpretation identified Peter into the mythology because Peter is the person who asked Christ in Matt 19:28,

Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Many of the tribes have since been scattered around the world, particularly the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles.

7up wrote: Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are comparing themselves to other prophets who revealed the truth about Jesus Christ to the world. That is why I quoted Jesus who said, "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)" Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God.

Then you tacitly admit that it has nothing to do with BY's comment . BY was not talking about Joseph Smith being a type of Christ, he was saying quite specifically that JS was our ticket to pass to Christ, and that we would all be required to see JS before we saw Jesus.

The ticket/pass is accepting the revelation of God and Christ as given through Joseph Smith, just as it was with the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. There is no actual gate where Joseph Smith will actually be standing. There is no stopping by Joseph Smith on the way either. Brigham was using poetic imagery like a "certificate" or a "passport", which are not meant to be literal in any way. Brigham did not say that they had to literally "stop by Joseph Smith" on the way to Heaven either. You are obviously misleading your audience on purpose.

You're an ass.

I say , "its an archetype". Then you respond, "No, you are wrong, it is a 'type'". And then you turn around and call me an ass? Sure Bill, sure.

Each dispensation has a prophet at its head. I gave Noah and Moses as examples. Like how Moses taught in his dispensation that those who looked to the serpent on a pole would live. This was a "type" (Alma 33:19) or similitude of the Savior. Those who didn't obey Moses and would not look, didn't live. Accepting what Moses said in that dispensation was the "passport" to life and salvation.

Hey dumbass, did you even bother to see my reply to OB1? I made it perfectly clear that I was not referring to a literal blue passport complete with photo and US insignia... but hey, don't let reality get in the way of your stupidity.

That is exactly the picture you were painting, as if it were literal. Even the idea of literally stopping by Joseph Smith is not an accurate portrayal. It is a portrayal that you would like to present to people who don't know any better. That isn't the concept being presented by Brigham and you know it. Again, Brigham explained what he meant in that same sermon: "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).

Because I expose all of your moronic stupidity, and you can't stand light being shined on your darkness.

Do you Bill? Is this post an example of that?

And Israel will be judged based on what faith they displayed. And the 12 were specifically to judge only Israel.

Please explain how they will go about judging Israel Bill. Is Jesus delegating?

Israel will be judged based on the truths that were revealed to them through prophets and apostles. But perhaps you can expand on exactly how the 12 will go about judging?

By the way, Israel has been scattered around the Earth. Israel includes more than just the Jews, and Israel has multiplied all over the globe.

There is no indication that once judged, they get to pass on to see Jesus.

That isn't what Brigham meant either. The concept is the same as receiving God's truth through prophets as found in the Bible. As the Lord said to the apostles, "He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matt. 10:40). Brigham is applying the same concept to the "last dispensation".

He is not even in the equation. We will not have ANY stops prior to the judgment seat of Christ.

Brigham Young did not say that there were stops on the way. If God and Christ truly spoke through Joseph Smith, as LDS believe he did, then God and Christ are in agreement with what Joseph Smith revealed to the world concerning the order and kingdom of God. This being the case, the final dispensation was rolled out through Joseph Smith and as a prophet he is in agreement with God and Christ about who follows those truths that were revealed. The same is true for the prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament.

Furthermore, Brigham Young is talking about the work of the temple and baptisms for the dead. In the very next paragraph he says,

Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.

Only if you do first. I haven't misrepresented anything BY said, and I linked directly to the context for all to see.

Of course you have misrepresented what BY said. Now you have softened your stance, but you are still misrepresenting. Now you are saying that people have to literally stop by Joseph on the way to Heaven. Brigham never said that. As you can see, Brigham Young is referring to a preaching of the gospel which has been delegated by Christ to Joseph Smith, to those who are on the Earth and those spirits who are yet to be resurrected. Those who accept this truth receive the "consent" of Joseph Smith, but Brigham is clear that it is all "under the directions of the Son of God", a portion of the context which anti-Mormons like you purposefully leave out in order to deceive people who are reading your blogs, forum posts, anti-Mormon websites, etc.

-7up

[Cow Poke]

7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.

That has ZERO to do with Joseph Smith.

The thread is talking about how LDS view this. We were not talking about what you think of Smith.

So?

Also, we are talking about the meaning of what was said by LDS leaders, rather than Bill's straw man version of it.

-7up

Your LDS leaders made it up as they went along, and couldn't even keep their stories in harmony.

Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.

[Sparko]

That has ZERO to do with Joseph Smith.



So?



Your LDS leaders made it up as they went along, and couldn't even keep their stories in harmony.

Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.

and it is particularly BAD fiction. At least L. Ron Hubbard's fictional story that he based scientology on was a little interesting. The BoM just tries to copy the bible style with a lot of "and it came to pass.." phrases and boring tripe that doesn't even make sense or is so easily disproven that basically the only people who continue to believe in Mormonism were those that were raised in it for the most part. Those that convert to mormonism usually end up leaving once they find out how silly it all is, like Ke7 did.

[Cow Poke]

and it is particularly BAD fiction. At least L. Ron Hubbard's fictional story that he based scientology on was a little interesting. The BoM just tries to copy the bible style with a lot of "and it came to pass.." phrases and boring tripe that doesn't even make sense or is so easily disproven that basically the only people who continue to believe in Mormonism were those that were raised in it for the most part. Those that convert to mormonism usually end up leaving once they find out how silly it all is, like Ke7 did.

One of the couples I worked with in Houston to come out of Mormonism moan and groan when we talk about how goofy the BoM is -- they are incredibly embarrassed they bought into that. It was, however, the local Mormon leadership that "sealed the deal" for them to realize it was a scam.

[seven7up]

7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.

That has ZERO to do with Joseph Smith.

It has everything to do with what Brigham Young was expressing about Joseph Smith. If Moses was the prophet in his dispensation, Noah in his, and the twelve apostles in the dispensation of the New Testament church, then LDS believe Joseph Smith to be the prophet of this dispensation and the truth of God revealed through him.

Brigham Young returned to this same theme in the sermon and compared it to Abraham in his dispensation:

"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. ... He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation,... Abraham was ordained to be the father of the faithful,—that is, he was ordained to come forth at a certain period; ..."


7up: The thread is talking about how LDS view this. We were not talking about what you think of Smith.

So?

This thread was created in order to criticize the LDS for supposedly thinking that people will have to "stop by Joseph Smith" on the way to heaven, as if Joseph Smith is the one at the pearly gates. That is not what Brigham was saying. We all know that you don't believe in the LDS religion. That isn't the point. The point is, what do LDS believe?

Here is the quote out of context:

" From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" - Brigham Young

Now, let's look at the words of Brigham in the paragraphs prior to the above quote shall we?

"The "Mormon" Elders will tell you that all people must receive this Gospel—the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and be baptized for the remission of sins, or they cannot be saved. Let me explain this to you They cannot go where God and Christ dwell, for that is a kingdom of itself—the celestial kingdom. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are m any mansions," or kingdoms. ... All those who have done according to the best of their knowledge, whether they are Christians, Pagans, Jews, Mohammedans, or any other class of men that have ever lived upon the earth, that have dealt honestly and justly with their fellow-beings, walked uprightly before each other, loved mercy, tried to put down iniquity, and done as far right as they knew how, according to the laws they lived under, no matter what the laws were, will share in a resurrection that will be glorious far beyond the conception of mortals."

So, the important part I want you to focus on is this. He says that in order to enter in the celestial kingdom, where God and Christ dwell, you must receive the ordinance of baptism. And LDS believe that this must be performed by one who has authority. Brigham continues:

"How many times have I been asked, "Do you believe that such a man as John Wesley will be damned?" ... John Wesley is in the spirit-world. He did not receive the ordinances of the everlasting Gospel in the flesh, and consequently is not prepared to hold the keys of the kingdom and be a minister of the great work of God in the last dispensation, but is dependent upon others to attain a celestial glory. Has he gone to hell? No. When the spirit leaves the body, it goes into the spirit-world, where the spirits of men are classified according to their own wills or pleasure, as men are here, only they are in a more pure and refined state of existence."

Now, here is an important part of the context. In order for John Wesley to be baptized by one who has authority, LDS believe that he must be baptized in this last dispensation by temple ordinances performed on his behalf.

"Much has been said about the power of the Latter-day Saints. Is it the people called Latter-day Saints that have this power, or is it the Priesthood? It is the Priesthood; and if they live according to that Priesthood, they can commence their work here and gain many victories, and be prepared to receive glory, immortality, and eternal life, that when they go into the spirit-world, their work will far surpass that of any other man or being that has not been blessed with the keys of the Priesthood here. Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days."

Now here we have more context. Brigham is referring to Joseph Smith who continues, under the authority of Jesus Christ, to be preaching the gospel in the spirit-world. Jesus Christ is at the head of that work, and began organizing that work during his three days after death and before his resurrection, where he "preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19).

"He (Joseph Smith) holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, ...I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now."

So, as you can see, Brigham Young is talking about Joseph Smith working in the spirit world, under the direction of Jesus Christ who is also there, in order to direct the work of temple ordinances (i.e. baptisms for the dead), so that they can enter into the kingdom of God which is judged by Christ at the end of the Millennium (ie the Final Judgment.)

Your LDS leaders made it up as they went along, and couldn't even keep their stories in harmony.

I see the harmony quite well. Spirits are present in the spirit world after death awaiting the resurrection. Christ went there, and in LDS theology, Joseph Smith is there under the direction of Jesus Christ. Here is the section in Doctrine and Covenants: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-te...38.12?lang=eng

Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.

You repeating your opinion on this over and over does not dissuade me in the slightest.

-7up

[seven7up]

One of the couples I worked with in Houston to come out of Mormonism moan and groan when we talk about how goofy the BoM is -- they are incredibly embarrassed they bought into that. It was, however, the local Mormon leadership that "sealed the deal" for them to realize it was a scam.

Unfortunately, in the end, they will be embarrassed to have bought into what you were selling.

-7up

[One Bad Pig]

Unfortunately, in the end, they will be embarrassed to have bought into what you were selling.

-7up

Pray tell, where do you get the idea that the poker of cows is selling anything? I seem to recall that they approached him with their doubts, not the other way around. It's y'all that go door to door peddling bad fiction.

[Christianbookworm]

How about some interesting fiction featuring super-powered human aliens?

[Cow Poke]

Unfortunately, in the end, they will be embarrassed to have bought into what you were selling.

-7up

Actually, I didn't stand a chance of "selling" them anything .... it was the lying from their leadership about things they knew were not true that opened the door to the truth. Their lying leaders told a story about how the land was acquired to build their Temple -- one of the guys was in real estate, and knew for a FACT that the Mormon leadership was telling a big 'n. He came to me because I was the facilities director of an adjacent property, and I just HAPPENED to have the entire plat layout that was the physical evidence of the lie. When they went back to the leadership to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding of what the Mormon leadership was claiming, YOUR guys doubled down, and got angry and kicked them out, accusing them of blasphemy or some stupid thing.

I didn't have to "sell" them anything -- the lies of your Mormon leaders were exposed - all I had to do was hold the Light!

Anyway, these guys and their wives had to ask the question --- if they'd lie about THAT, what ELSE would they lie about?

That's what you need, 7 --- you need the REAL Light of truth to shine on you.