So, bottom line... Smith won't be checking passports -- he'll be trying to figure out how to get himself past the gate.
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Do Mormons Still Believe Smith will be "checking passports" in Heaven?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, bottom line... Smith won't be checking passports -- he'll be trying to figure out how to get himself past the gate.That's what
- She
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostAnd the Judge is Someone you really don't want to have upset at you...
(My Attorney happens to be the Judge's only son, and the Judge thinks He can do no wrong! )The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, in the first place, the Apostles were called by Christ, and Smith was not.
Also, we are talking about the meaning of what was said by LDS leaders, rather than Bill's straw man version of it.
-7up
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7up wrote: As previously mentioned by many LDS apologists, this is similar to the Christian image of Peter at the "pearly gates," who opens and closes the gate to admit people in or not, according to the righteous judgments of God.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostJust going to address this for a second...
This misunderstanding of Peter goes back to an early medieval interpretation that identified Peter with a figure in Germanic mythology who was the porter of heaven. The Church didn't originate this, but your church originated the nonsense of Joseph Smith at the highest level.
Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Many of the tribes have since been scattered around the world, particularly the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The 12 apostles went preaching the gospel and much of what they wrote is found in the New Testament. The tribes will be judged based upon the revelation of Christ as given by the Apostles.
7up wrote: Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are comparing themselves to other prophets who revealed the truth about Jesus Christ to the world. That is why I quoted Jesus who said, "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)" Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThen you tacitly admit that it has nothing to do with BY's comment . BY was not talking about Joseph Smith being a type of Christ, he was saying quite specifically that JS was our ticket to pass to Christ, and that we would all be required to see JS before we saw Jesus.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostYou're an ass.
Each dispensation has a prophet at its head. I gave Noah and Moses as examples. Like how Moses taught in his dispensation that those who looked to the serpent on a pole would live. This was a "type" (Alma 33:19) or similitude of the Savior. Those who didn't obey Moses and would not look, didn't live. Accepting what Moses said in that dispensation was the "passport" to life and salvation.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostHey dumbass, did you even bother to see my reply to OB1? I made it perfectly clear that I was not referring to a literal blue passport complete with photo and US insignia... but hey, don't let reality get in the way of your stupidity.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostBecause I expose all of your moronic stupidity, and you can't stand light being shined on your darkness.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd Israel will be judged based on what faith they displayed. And the 12 were specifically to judge only Israel.
Israel will be judged based on the truths that were revealed to them through prophets and apostles. But perhaps you can expand on exactly how the 12 will go about judging?
By the way, Israel has been scattered around the Earth. Israel includes more than just the Jews, and Israel has multiplied all over the globe.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThere is no indication that once judged, they get to pass on to see Jesus.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostHe is not even in the equation. We will not have ANY stops prior to the judgment seat of Christ.
Furthermore, Brigham Young is talking about the work of the temple and baptisms for the dead. In the very next paragraph he says,
Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOnly if you do first. I haven't misrepresented anything BY said, and I linked directly to the context for all to see.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View Post7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.
The thread is talking about how LDS view this. We were not talking about what you think of Smith.
Also, we are talking about the meaning of what was said by LDS leaders, rather than Bill's straw man version of it.
-7up
Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat has ZERO to do with Joseph Smith.
So?
Your LDS leaders made it up as they went along, and couldn't even keep their stories in harmony.
Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postand it is particularly BAD fiction. At least L. Ron Hubbard's fictional story that he based scientology on was a little interesting. The BoM just tries to copy the bible style with a lot of "and it came to pass.." phrases and boring tripe that doesn't even make sense or is so easily disproven that basically the only people who continue to believe in Mormonism were those that were raised in it for the most part. Those that convert to mormonism usually end up leaving once they find out how silly it all is, like Ke7 did.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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7up: As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat has ZERO to do with Joseph Smith.
Brigham Young returned to this same theme in the sermon and compared it to Abraham in his dispensation:
"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. ... He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation,... Abraham was ordained to be the father of the faithful,—that is, he was ordained to come forth at a certain period; ..."
7up: The thread is talking about how LDS view this. We were not talking about what you think of Smith.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo?
Here is the quote out of context:
" From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" - Brigham Young
Now, let's look at the words of Brigham in the paragraphs prior to the above quote shall we?
"The "Mormon" Elders will tell you that all people must receive this Gospel—the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and be baptized for the remission of sins, or they cannot be saved. Let me explain this to you They cannot go where God and Christ dwell, for that is a kingdom of itself—the celestial kingdom. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are m any mansions," or kingdoms. ... All those who have done according to the best of their knowledge, whether they are Christians, Pagans, Jews, Mohammedans, or any other class of men that have ever lived upon the earth, that have dealt honestly and justly with their fellow-beings, walked uprightly before each other, loved mercy, tried to put down iniquity, and done as far right as they knew how, according to the laws they lived under, no matter what the laws were, will share in a resurrection that will be glorious far beyond the conception of mortals."
So, the important part I want you to focus on is this. He says that in order to enter in the celestial kingdom, where God and Christ dwell, you must receive the ordinance of baptism. And LDS believe that this must be performed by one who has authority. Brigham continues:
"How many times have I been asked, "Do you believe that such a man as John Wesley will be damned?" ... John Wesley is in the spirit-world. He did not receive the ordinances of the everlasting Gospel in the flesh, and consequently is not prepared to hold the keys of the kingdom and be a minister of the great work of God in the last dispensation, but is dependent upon others to attain a celestial glory. Has he gone to hell? No. When the spirit leaves the body, it goes into the spirit-world, where the spirits of men are classified according to their own wills or pleasure, as men are here, only they are in a more pure and refined state of existence."
Now, here is an important part of the context. In order for John Wesley to be baptized by one who has authority, LDS believe that he must be baptized in this last dispensation by temple ordinances performed on his behalf.
"Much has been said about the power of the Latter-day Saints. Is it the people called Latter-day Saints that have this power, or is it the Priesthood? It is the Priesthood; and if they live according to that Priesthood, they can commence their work here and gain many victories, and be prepared to receive glory, immortality, and eternal life, that when they go into the spirit-world, their work will far surpass that of any other man or being that has not been blessed with the keys of the Priesthood here. Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days."
Now here we have more context. Brigham is referring to Joseph Smith who continues, under the authority of Jesus Christ, to be preaching the gospel in the spirit-world. Jesus Christ is at the head of that work, and began organizing that work during his three days after death and before his resurrection, where he "preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19).
"He (Joseph Smith) holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, ...I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now."
So, as you can see, Brigham Young is talking about Joseph Smith working in the spirit world, under the direction of Jesus Christ who is also there, in order to direct the work of temple ordinances (i.e. baptisms for the dead), so that they can enter into the kingdom of God which is judged by Christ at the end of the Millennium (ie the Final Judgment.)
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYour LDS leaders made it up as they went along, and couldn't even keep their stories in harmony.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSmith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction.
-7up
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOne of the couples I worked with in Houston to come out of Mormonism moan and groan when we talk about how goofy the BoM is -- they are incredibly embarrassed they bought into that. It was, however, the local Mormon leadership that "sealed the deal" for them to realize it was a scam.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostUnfortunately, in the end, they will be embarrassed to have bought into what you were selling.
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostUnfortunately, in the end, they will be embarrassed to have bought into what you were selling.
-7up
I didn't have to "sell" them anything -- the lies of your Mormon leaders were exposed - all I had to do was hold the Light!
Anyway, these guys and their wives had to ask the question --- if they'd lie about THAT, what ELSE would they lie about?
That's what you need, 7 --- you need the REAL Light of truth to shine on you.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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