James 2:24?

[seer]

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The only place we actually find the term "faith alone" it says that we are not justified by faith alone.

[Xmansmommy]

Interesting observation seer.

[seer]

Interesting observation seer.

Hey X. Yes this is not as simple as some suggest - I wonder if James was not at odds with Paul here...

[Xmansmommy]

According to dispensationalism he certainly was seer.

[George Murphy]

Hey X. Yes this is not as simple as some suggest - I wonder if James was not at odds with Paul here...

Well, yes. There is a range of theologies in the NT (which doesn't mean that the fundamental faith is different). The theology of Paul differs from that of James - & of Matthew, for that matter.

On the original point, Luther has often been criticized - especially by traditional RCs - for using the word allein, "alone" or "only" in his translation of Rom.3:28: So halten wir es nun, dass der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben. Most of his critics have not bothered to read his essay "On Translation" in which, among other things, he argues that this is necessary in order to render Paul's Greek into good German. (Anyone who knows anything about languages knows that translation isn't always just a matter of substituting one word for another.)

The case for the doctrine of justification "by grace alone, through faith alone" hardly rests on that verse "alone." Eph.2:8-9, e.g., doesn't seem to leave any room for salvation by works.

Shalom,
George

[seer]

The case for the doctrine of justification "by grace alone, through faith alone" hardly rests on that verse "alone." Eph.2:8-9, e.g., doesn't seem to leave any room for salvation by works.

Well it doesn't seem that James agrees...

[Jaltus]

The question is if Paul and James mean the same thing by the term justification.

[Calvinist4Him]

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The only place we actually find the term "faith alone" it says that we are not justified by faith alone.

Frankly, that is terrible, terrible "proof" texting. Anybody can say just about anything they want by quoting one verse from the Bible. i would expect better from you seer.

[seer]

Frankly, that is terrible, terrible "proof" texting. Anybody can say just about anything they want by quoting one verse from the Bible. i would expect better from you seer.

Ok, then what is James saying when he states that we are not justified by faith alone?

[seer]

The question is if Paul and James mean the same thing by the term justification.

Two different kinds of justification?

[Calvinist4Him]

Ok, then what is James saying when he states that we are not justified by faith alone?

James also say's 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

and

James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

i think James has in mind a "true or real" faith, and a "false or illusionary" faith. i think James has in mind people who call themselves "Christians" but do not produce "good fruit", IOW they have nothing to show for what they call "faith".

i think James has in mind a "living" faith, and a "dead" faith. True faith will produce good fruit ("good" as defined by Jesus), and false faith will produce no good fruit.

So to reconcile James with the rest of the N.T.....we're justified by a "living" faith alone...for even the demons believe and shudder.

P.S. - Let's not bring up people who are confined to a wheel chair, or handicapped people.

[brett]

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The only place we actually find the term "faith alone" it says that we are not justified by faith alone.

Two different kinds of justification?

Yes that's absolutely right.

I think sometimes we get so used to theological definitions of certain words that we forget they have other meanings in scripture depending on the context. Justified CAN mean declared righteous before God, but doesn't always. A great example is Romans 3:4.

Rom. 3:4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may bejustified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”

This verse is absolutely NOT speaking of justification of sins before God, rather justification of words before men. This is a crucial difference.

Which category then does James 2:24 fit in?? From the context it’s clear it fits into the latter (justification of words before men). James is not referring to the justification of sins, but rather of a claim. What claim? James 2:14, ...if a man says he has faith...

Therefore, a paraphrase of James 2:24 could be:
It should be evident to you now, that a person will be declared righteous [by those around them], because of their deeds, not just their words.

This is really the whole theme of James chapter 2. (verse 18) But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Paul, in Romans 4 is speaking of justification before God. James here in chapter 2 is speaking of justification before men.

By the way, this is one reason I really hate the New Living Translation. They erroneously inject with God into the passage.

James 2:24 So you see, we are made right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

Needless to say, with God or before God isn’t in the original text.

[seer]

i think James has in mind a "true or real" faith, and a "false or illusionary" faith. i think James has in mind people who call themselves "Christians" but do not produce "good fruit", IOW they have nothing to show for what they call "faith".

Ok, let's see if that fits with verse 24:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by true faith alone."

or

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by false faith alone."

I don't think that works Apologist...

[seer]

This is really the whole theme of James chapter 2. (verse 18) But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God."


"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God."

So this is justification before men only?

[Calvinist4Him]

i think James has in mind a "true or real" faith, and a "false or illusionary" faith. i think James has in mind people who call themselves "Christians" but do not produce "good fruit", IOW they have nothing to show for what they call "faith".

Ok, let's see if that fits with verse 24:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by true faith alone."

or

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by false faith alone."

I don't think that works Apologist...

Are you a Catholic seer? i ask because justification by faith alone is one of the
five Solas of the Reformation. The leaders and most influencial of the Reformers include: Luther and Calvin. From Calvin to Arminius to Wesley.

Ok seer, you want to play a game, let's play a game. How do you reconcile James with Paul, especially Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

If a man is justified by works, how is a man saved by grace?

Finally, those strawmen statements of yours are unrepresentative examples of James the brother of Jesus' intended meaning, and my interpreation of James' intended meaning.