When is violence okay for a Christian?

[Amazing Rando]

When is it okay not to turn the other cheek?

When is it permissible for a Christian to beat the snot out of someone else?

Thoughts?

[Cello]

When is it okay not to turn the other cheek?

When is it permissible for a Christian to beat the snot out of someone else?

Thoughts?

I don't know about beating the snot out of someone....but many find nothing wrong with hitting their own kids and calling it spanking or discipline. Better run and hide now..........

Seriously, I think there are different definitions of violence, beating the snot out of someone (really like your terminology there), and 'not turning the other cheek'.

I am inclined to say that physical force may be used for self protection (self defense) or for the protection of someone who is unable to protect themselves, but I do not know what biblical grounds there is for that.

Look forward to hearing others responses.

[elysian]

When is it okay not to turn the other cheek?

When is it permissible for a Christian to beat the snot out of someone else?

Thoughts?

Only in someone else's defense. You may beat the snot out of someone if they are endangering a child, beating his or her spouse or causing bodily harm to another person. It is acceptable to apply enough force/damage necessary to dissuade the perpetrator from causing harm to another.

Though self-defense is justification for violence under civil law, Jesus said "turn the other cheek." Escaping from the perpetrator without causing him harm is preferable to beating the snot out of him.

Combatants in war fall under a whole different set of rules.

[Cello]

Only in someone else's defense. You may beat the snot out of someone if they are endangering a child, beating his or her spouse or causing bodily harm to another person. It is acceptable to apply enough force/damage necessary to dissuade the perpetrator from causing harm to another.

Though self-defense is justification for violence under civil law, Jesus said "turn the other cheek." Escaping from the perpetrator without causing him harm is preferable to beating the snot out of him.

Combatants in war fall under a whole different set of rules.

Hi El!! What passages do you use for support of "someone elses defense"?

TIA!

[Amazing Rando]

Only in someone else's defense. You may beat the snot out of someone if they are endangering a child, beating his or her spouse or causing bodily harm to another person. It is acceptable to apply enough force/damage necessary to dissuade the perpetrator from causing harm to another.

Though self-defense is justification for violence under civil law, Jesus said "turn the other cheek." Escaping from the perpetrator without causing him harm is preferable to beating the snot out of him.

Combatants in war fall under a whole different set of rules.

An interesting thing to note is that for the first three centuries of the Christian Church, all surviving writings from that era indicate a pacifist response to the question of violence.

Augustine, in formulating the first "Just war" theory of Christian ethics, said that self-defense was not a justifiable reason for a Christian to resort to violence, though he said it was permissible in the case of defending another person who cannot defend themself.

[Radical1]

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[Amazing Rando]

Radical1- if you're not a Christian, can you please refrain from posting in the Christianity 201 section as per forum rules? Thanks!

[Radical1]

Radical1- if you're not a Christian, can you please refrain from posting in the Christianity 201 section as per forum rules? Thanks!

Sorry. Didn't read the rules.

[Pilgrim]

Sorry. Didn't read the rules.

oops I should have read the whole thread! Sorry.

back to the thread itself...quoting Ghandi, "I can think of nothing for which I would kill, but 1000 for which I would die."

[bar Jonah]

Uhm, Rando, you should have set the poll to allow multiple choices. :rihrm:

LOL

I choose to defend another, because that is the greater priority. But I would have also chosen to defend myself.

I also believe that as scripture exhorts us to fulfill the legal requirements of our nation, military service is also generally a good thing, as long as it does not involve oppressing other nations (or one's own nation), in which case a believer would have to refuse.


The GODISNOWHERE team, however, has a special rule on this issue at the events we go to (fairs, festivals, college campuses, public parks). We will not defend ourselves, but we watch each other's backs and will defend each other. The reason for this is that occasionally a discussion will escalate and emotions can run high, even for ourselves. We're not perfect, especially when someone is threatening to follow us back to our car and meet us there with a tire iron... or even worse, threatening to follow us home and rape our children.

So, we recognize that, potentially, one of us could lose our cool, one day. We want to avoid a situation of temptation to want a situation to escalate into a fight. So, while we all believe in self-defense, each of us is not allowed to defend ourselves. But I know my brothers will be there to stand in the gap... whether it's some scrawny little postmodern atheist professor, or some 6'7" nihilist goth with spikes and formidable biceps.

[bar Jonah]

oops I should have read the whole thread! Sorry.

back to the thread itself...quoting Ghandi, "I can think of nothing for which I would kill, but 1000 for which I would die."

I have to comment that looking to a hell-bound pagan for moralistic truth is a bit dubious, to say the least...

[Esther]

Cello, I am not Elysian but I'll jump in here anyway.

Deuteronomy 24 speaks of looking out for welfare of the widow and the orphan.

In Jeremiah 22, God is dealing with the sons of Josiah, king of Judah, who are dealing poorly with the people. (I imagine that's putting it mildly.) That entire chapter is about how the kings should treat their subjects and what will happen to them if they don't. The common thread through that is that they have turned from putting God first and have done their own thing. In putting God first, they would have also been dealing kindly with those around them.

[elysian]

Hi El!! What passages do you use for support of "someone elses defense"?

TIA!

"To love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12:33 (NIV)

How compassionate is it to stand by and watch an innocent person get pummelled if you have the means to stop it? Is that loving?

"Learn to do right! Seek justice, relieve the oppressed, and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless, plead for the widow." Isaiah 1:17 (AMP)

I would say stopping a perpetrator from effecting violence falls under both relieving the oppressed (the victim is no longer getting pummelled) and correcting the oppressor, doesn't it?

"As for those who are guilty and persist in sin, rebuke and admonish them in the presence of all, so that the rest may be warned and stand in wholesome awe and fear." 1 Timothy 5:20 (AMP)

Some people don't understand terms like "no" or "stop." Physical violence is a last resort, but to stand idly by while another perpetrates violence is sin as well. Failure to act to stop the victimization of another is sin! Sometimes it is necessary to very publicly and very dramatically correct another so that others will see those actions will not be tolerated.

By far the strongest admonition for the defense of others is "love your neighbor as yourself." If I were being attacked by a rapist or other thug I'd certainly want someone to come to my aid.

[Cello]

"To love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12:33 (NIV)

How compassionate is it to stand by and watch an innocent person get pummelled if you have the means to stop it? Is that loving?

"Learn to do right! Seek justice, relieve the oppressed, and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless, plead for the widow." Isaiah 1:17 (AMP)

I would say stopping a perpetrator from effecting violence falls under both relieving the oppressed (the victim is no longer getting pummelled) and correcting the oppressor, doesn't it?

"As for those who are guilty and persist in sin, rebuke and admonish them in the presence of all, so that the rest may be warned and stand in wholesome awe and fear." 1 Timothy 5:20 (AMP)

Some people don't understand terms like "no" or "stop." Physical violence is a last resort, but to stand idly by while another perpetrates violence is sin as well. Failure to act to stop the victimization of another is sin! Sometimes it is necessary to very publicly and very dramatically correct another so that others will see those actions will not be tolerated.

By far the strongest admonition for the defense of others is "love your neighbor as yourself." If I were being attacked by a rapist or other thug I'd certainly want someone to come to my aid.

Thanks El. I dont' disagree...I was just wondering what passages inparticular spoke to you. It makes me wonder though how much we love ourselves if we allow someone else to beat us without defense. If loving others as we love ourselves is the jumping off point.....know what I mean?

[elysian]

I wonder about that too. I think the aim should be to do as little harm as possible, i.e. flee from an attacker versus harming him, or use a "non-lethal" mode to disable an attacker so one can flee versus killing him.

Maybe it's just me and my reluctance to engage in or endorse self-defense comes from my childhood. When my sisters beat me up my Dad would tell me "just take it and don't fight back because then it won't be any fun for them and they'll stop." It never worked with my sisters- they beat me up daily and they seemed to have the same amount of fun whether I fought back or not. Sometimes I wondered why my Dad never came to my defense even when it was two against one and he knew they were beating the daylights out of me. What was the lesson here? That I wasn't worth defending?

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 (NIV)

It is more noble to defend another, to put another in higher esteem than oneself. Love says "surrender." Love says "sacrifice" even until death.