Christ – The Alpha and the Omega by Dee Dee Warren

[Tsmith]

Yesterday @ 11:58 PM post located here
OldShepherd:



How do we know that the JPS is in error, in translating "ehyeh" as I AM? Because you say so?

"If I recall, though I may be wrong, the JPS OT is not something accepted by Orthodox Jews anyway." LMSHO How many times do I have to ask for documentation? "I seem to reacall", "many scholars", etc., etc. If you are going to refute what I say then quote reliable sources, please.

Sorry, I'm used to dealing with people a bit more framiliar with the languages.

The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible: "The meaning of is obscured by the conventional translation I am who I am., which implies that God is the ground of his own existance. The Hebrew verb denotes, not abstract being, but manifestation in a definite character, or name; and its form indicates habitual manifestation in past, present, or future. Since English requires a tense, the best rendering is 'I will be as I will be.'"

Rabbi Abba bar Mamel
This is [the meaning] of "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" (literally, I will be what I will be, from Exodus 3:14), I am called according to deeds.

RABBI STEPHEN PEARCE senior rabbi at Congregation Emanu-El in
San Francisco:
"God's answer in Exodus 3:14, "'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' -- 'I will be what I will be' -- sent me to you" is so illusive and ambiguous that this description could not have been very believable.

Rabbi Jordan D. Cohen
Moses perceived that the people would want to know which attribute of God they can expect to encounter; that is, what their experience of God will be, and what is going to happen to them. God's answer, then, leaves things open-ended. Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh is based on the future tense conjugation of the Hebrew verb meaning "to be." Often translated as "I Am Who I Am," the phrase is more accurately translated as "I Will Be That Which I Will Be." The people will come to know God through their unfolding experiences together.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 03:26 PM post located here
Jaltus:




Not an argument.

12 "But where can wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding?
13 "Man does not know its value, Nor is it found in the land of the living.
14 "The deep says, 'It is not in me'; And the sea says, 'It is not with me.'

"It" refers to wisdom. "Wisdom is not with me." Thus, impersonal use. Try again.

Dear Jaltus,
DeeDee just informed me that you almost have a PHD in Greek. Good for you. I am all for improving oneself.

Since you are so far along in your studies then you probably have studied Wallace's Grammar where on page 507 he says of poetry "in Greek .... there is almost always some suspension of normal grammatical rules."

This being the case, can we now both agree that there are no legitimate exceptions to the general rule offered by BDAG?

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Dee Dee Warren]

So Cal, what are your Greek qualifications? I am not trying to be a wisecracker, but since you are presuming to instruct someone who is almost a PhD in Greek, I am wondering from what foundation you have to do that?

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 04:05 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:



Like a car wreck on ice, I knew this was coming. Cal, now is an appropriate time to ask you what are your Greek qualifications? I am not suggesting you don't have any, you obviously have more than my none, but what are they? You are aware that Jaltus has almost earned his PhD in Greek aren't you?

Dear DeeDee,
I asked a sincere question because he was giving examples for MET EMOU as parallels to Revelation 22:12 that did not fit the profile in BDAG with respects to the Greek grammar.

Then he disparages BDAG based on grammar when Daniel Wallace of DTS frequently defers to it for the uses of prepositions.

That being said, he is proving to be a worthy opponent. I am glad you told me his level because I will not feel the need to talk down to him or explain certain things in minute detail.

However, the fact that he does not yet have his PHD does not tell me too much. On Paltalk you said he knew some Greek but that he was not an expert. Someone who almost has a PHD would be considered an expert.

Also, if he has been working on this for 25 years and still does no have his PHD or if he is getting a C average or otherwise impaired in some way your statement would not necessarly make him an expert. (Just a hypothetical, no harm intended.)

As for me, I do not give out personal details about myself on the internet.

You will need to determine how good my Greek and Hebrew is by my posts on this forum.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[GrayPilgrim]

The problem is that אהיה אשר אהיה is one of the most nettlesome philological discussions in the whole of Hebraic studies. I would reccomend looking at the AB, WBC, et al and not the Interpreters as the authros will often give the rationale for translating in the way they do. Listing several Rabi's is not necessarily the greatest or most productive way to discuss this as there are several ways to take this phrase all of which have linguistic and contextual support.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 07:26 PM post located here
Cal_Minian:



Dear DeeDee,
I asked a sincere question because he was giving examples for MET EMOU as parallels to Revelation 22:12 that did not fit the profile in BDAG with respects to the Greek grammar.

Then he disparages BDAG based on grammar when Daniel Wallace of DTS frequently defers to it for the uses of prepositions.

That being said, he is proving to be a worthy opponent. I am glad you told me his level because I will not feel the need to talk down to him or explain certain things in minute detail.

Can I apply your own rule and feel the need to talk down to you until you prove your qualifications? I think you are good at parroting books but have little to no personal qualifications. I do the same, but admit it.

However, the fact that he does not yet have his PHD does not tell me too much. On Paltalk you said he knew some Greek but that he was not an expert. Someone who almost has a PHD would be considered an expert.

UTTERLY AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I can only assume you are honestly mistaken. I never mentioned Jaltus to you on PalTalk, and I would never describe him as someone who knows a "little" Greek. I consider him an expert.

Also, if he has been working on this for 25 years and still does no have his PHD or if he is getting a C average or otherwise impaired in some way your statement would not necessarly make him an expert. (Just a hypothetical, no harm intended.)

Because you have no personal qualifications you are now reduced to implyikng that perhaps Jaltus is a poor student?

As for me, I do not give out personal details about myself on the internet.

That is your perogative, but you are presuming to expound upon Greek and will not say your qualifications. I will then exercise my perogative to assume you have little to no formal training. This is a reasonable question that requires no private information. I am not asking you what school you went to, or anything that woudl identify you. I have a right I beleive to ask you by what authority you presume to expound upon Scripture that robs Christ of His rightful place.

You will need to determine how good my Greek and Hebrew is by my posts on this forum.

Since I know neither Greek or Hebrew that wil be tough. I just wanted it out in the open that you apparently do not either, or know enough to sound authorative. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is my opinion.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 02:32 PM post located here
Jaltus:


Not an argument. In Revelation, only Jesus is coming. Stick with the book in question before going cannonical.

Dear Jaltus,

The very beginning of the book shows that the Father is coming.

NRS Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in
Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who
was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who
are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful
witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the
kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from
our sins by his blood,

The one who is to come is being distinguished from Jesus Christ. Thus this one must be the Father. The Father and Son have a joint coming in Revelation just like in Isaiah 40:10 to which John alludes in Revelation 22:12.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 09:06 AM post located here
Tsmith:

Sorry, I'm used to dealing with people a bit more framiliar with the languages.

The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible: "The meaning of is obscured by the conventional translation I am who I am., which implies that God is the ground of his own existance. The Hebrew verb denotes, not abstract being, but manifestation in a definite character, or name; and its form indicates habitual manifestation in past, present, or future. Since English requires a tense, the best rendering is 'I will be as I will be.'"

Rabbi Abba bar Mamel
This is [the meaning] of "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" (literally, I will be what I will be, from Exodus 3:14), I am called according to deeds.

RABBI STEPHEN PEARCE senior rabbi at Congregation Emanu-El in
San Francisco:
"God's answer in Exodus 3:14, "'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' -- 'I will be what I will be' -- sent me to you" is so illusive and ambiguous that this description could not have been very believable.

Rabbi Jordan D. Cohen
Moses perceived that the people would want to know which attribute of God they can expect to encounter; that is, what their experience of God will be, and what is going to happen to them. God's answer, then, leaves things open-ended. Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh is based on the future tense conjugation of the Hebrew verb meaning "to be." Often translated as "I Am Who I Am," the phrase is more accurately translated as "I Will Be That Which I Will Be." The people will come to know God through their unfolding experiences together.

"Sorry, I'm used to dealing with people a bit more framiliar with the languages." Hey O2, did you see this? Darn ,where is a good sarcasm watchdog when you need one?

I'm sorry, I thought I made myself clear, I asked for your sources not just vague references to "A buncha scholars say. . . " You will note virtually every time I reference a source I clearly identify, and if possible link to, that source. I almost never say "Everybody knows. . . " to make a point.

And OBTW did you happen to notice that Rabbi Pearce contradicts the other two? Now where is your irrefutable source? I thought I was dealing with somebody who knew what he was talking about

One final point. who are these Rabbis, are they noted Hebrew scholars, or just local Rabbis expounding their understanding, no different than you or I?

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 09:55 AM post located here
Cal_Minian:

Dear Jaltus,

The very beginning of the book shows that the Father is coming.

The one who is to come is being distinguished from Jesus Christ. Thus this one must be the Father. The Father and Son have a joint coming in Revelation just like in Isaiah 40:10 to which John alludes in Revelation 22:12.

Kind Regards,
Cal

PMFBI, don't mind me I will just drop in a little church history to aid in the understanding Alpha and Omega in Revelation.

• Hippolytus. Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews.
  
  [a.d. 170-236.]The first great Christian Father whose history is Roman is, nevertheless, not a Roman, but a Greek.
  
  “Also in the Gospel according to John, the Lord says: "And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest me to do. And now, do Thou glorify me with Thyself, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was made."122 Also Paul to the Colossians: "Who is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature."123 Also in the same place: "The first-born from the dead, that He might in all things become the holder of the pre-eminence."124 In the Apocalypse too: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto Him that is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely."125 That He also is both the wisdom and the power of God, Paul proves in his first Epistle to the Corinthians. "Because the Jews require a sign, and the Creeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews indeed a stumbling-block, and to the Gentiles foolishness; but to them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-122.htm
  
  THE LETTERS OF ST. JEROME Against Jovianus (c. 370 AD)
  
  Whence also the Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says,102 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-0...3.htm#P75_1065
  
  Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of John Book I [185 - 254 AD]
  
  For none of these plainly declared His Godhead, as John does when he makes Him [Jesus] say, "I am the light of the world," "I am the way and the truth and the life," "I am the resurrection, "I am the door," "I am the good shepherd; "and in the Apocalypse, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." We may therefore make bold to say that the Gospels are the first fruits of all the Scriptures, but that of the Gospels that of John is the first fruits.
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-37.htm
  
  St Ambrose Exposition of the Christian Faith Book II (c. 380)
  
  35. But hear also such a passage as you can build no doubts upon:50 "Behold, He cometh," saith the Scripture, "with the clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they which pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn because of Him. Yea, amen. I am Alpha and Omega, saith the Lord God, Who is, and Who was, and Who is to come, the Almighty."51 Whom, I ask, did they pierce? For Whose coming hope we but the Son's? Therefore, Christ is Almighty Lord, and God.
  
  36. Hear another passage, your sacred Majesty,-hear the voice of Christ. "Thus saith the Lord Almighty: After His glory52 hath He sent me against the nations which have made spoil of you, forasmuch as he that toucheth you is as he that toucheth the pupil of His eye. For lo, I lay my hand upon them which despoiled you, and I will save you, and they shall be for a spoil, which made spoil of you, and they shall know that the Lord Almighty hath sent Me." Plainly, He Who speaks is the Lord Almighty, and He Who hath sent is the Lord Almighty. By consequence, then, almighty power appertains both to the Father and to the Son; nevertheless, it is One Almighty God, for there is oneness of Majesty.
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-10/Npnf2-10-24.htm
  
  Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book I (a.d. 153-193-217.)
  
  I have instructed you in Christ with simple, true, and natural nourishment,-namely, that which is spiritual: for such is the nourishing substance of milk swelling out from breasts of love. So that the whole matter may be conceived thus: As nurses nourish new-born children on milk, so do I also by the Word, the milk of Christ, instilling into you spiritual nutriment.
  
  Thus, then, the milk which is perfect is perfect nourishment, and brings to that consummation which cannot cease. Wherefore also the same milk and honey were promised in the rest. Rightly, therefore, the Lord again promises milk to the righteous, that the Word may be clearly shown to be both, "the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end; "77 the Word being figuratively represented as milk.
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-52.htm
  
  Clement of Alexandria The Stromata, or Miscellanies Book IV.
  
  “And the Son is neither simply one thing as one thing, nor many things as parts, but one thing as all things; whence also He is all things. For He is the circle of all powers rolled and united into one unity. Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break. Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.”
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-63.htm
  
  Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria Discourse IV (356-360 AD)
  
  And this John enables us to do, who says in the Apocalypse, `I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who make broad their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie. I Jesus have sent My Angel, to testify these things in the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-62.htm

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate.

[Jaltus]

Let me respond to a few things.

First, I have a BS in classical Greek (BS since I also majored in physics and math, yes I am a nerd). I also have an M Div in which my electives were essentially all in Greek (one exception I can think of).

I currently am carrying a 3.7 something in my PhD program as the NT department fellow. I have also taught Greek at the seminary level. I am only in my second year of PhD work, seeing that I am not even 30 yet. I have been working in the Greek language for err...let me count....at least 8 years.

In terms of poetry, you made one major mistake, Job is not a poetic book in Greek. It is poetic in Hebrew and defies rules there, but in Greek it is just a translation. Poetic Greek deals with meter, whereas Hebrew deals with parallelism. I think you missed the boat on that one. (and yes, I have done a lot of work in Greek poetry) If you read the entire two paragraphs by Wallace you would have avoided this mistake.

Actually, this makes me think of something, thanks. I think I am going to post a thread on the poetry of the NT and see what it does and how it looks.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 06:39 PM post located here
Jaltus:

Let me respond to a few things.

First, I have a BS in classical Greek (BS since I also majored in physics and math, yes I am a nerd). I also have an M Div in which my electives were essentially all in Greek (one exception I can think of).

I currently am carrying a 3.7 something in my PhD program as the NT department fellow. I have also taught Greek at the seminary level. I am only in my second year of PhD work, seeing that I am not even 30 yet. I have been working in the Greek language for err...let me count....at least 8 years.

In terms of poetry, you made one major mistake, Job is not a poetic book in Greek. It is poetic in Hebrew and defies rules there, but in Greek it is just a translation. Poetic Greek deals with meter, whereas Hebrew deals with parallelism. I think you missed the boat on that one. (and yes, I have done a lot of work in Greek poetry) If you read the entire two paragraphs by Wallace you would have avoided this mistake.

Actually, this makes me think of something, thanks. I think I am going to post a thread on the poetry of the NT and see what it does and how it looks.

Dear Jaltus,
Of course the Greek was not written as poetry but it is translation Greek of Hebrew poetry. Wallace's quote says that poetry also in other languages causes the rules of grammar to be suspended.

Before you use the translation Greek of the Hebrew poetry of Job as an example of legitimate Greek you would need to do a great deal more than you have done which is merely to list the verse and say - see there is an example that refutes BDAG.

In most serious grammatical work the LXX is frequently excluded because it is translation Greek, but the fact that Job is poetry make it all the more suspect.

Now you have my curiosity pricked as well. I am going to read some passages in Job to see if you are correct that the Hebrew poetry from Job tranlsated into Greek is indeed free of any traces of poetry or Semitisms.

I am glad you are a good student of Greek. That will make you a more interesting person to bounce ideas off of.

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Cal_Minian]

DeeDee,
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, Dear.

If the gap between my knowledge and that of Jaltus is that great it should have been evident by now. Why would he waste time scrambling to refute my arguments if they held no validity?

Kind Regards,
Cal

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 05:29 PM post located here
OldShepherd:


Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of John Book I [185 - 254 AD]

For none of these plainly declared His Godhead, as John does when he makes Him [Jesus] say, "I am the light of the world," "I am the way and the truth and the life," "I am the resurrection, "I am the door," "I am the good shepherd; "and in the Apocalypse, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." We may therefore make bold to say that the Gospels are the first fruits of all the Scriptures, but that of the Gospels that of John is the first fruits.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-37.htm

Dear OldShepherd,
Could you post Origen on John 1:1?


Kind Regards,
Cal

[Dee Dee Warren]

I would laugh if you weren't so serious....

Today @ 10:10 PM post located here
Cal_Minian:

DeeDee,
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, Dear.

First of all, I am not your dear. Only my husband has the right to call me that. Do you often talk down to women like that?

If the gap between my knowledge and that of Jaltus is that great it should have been evident by now.

And it is, oh you of Secret Qualifications.

Why would he waste time scrambling to refute my arguments if they held no validity?

Oh how you flatter yourself!!! And funny, if he didn't respond, you would say if the gap was so great how come he has no answer. Nice little circle you drew for yourself.

[Cal_Minian]

Today @ 07:22 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

Dear DeeDee, (better at the beginning of the address than at the end I presume?)

You said:
Oh how you flatter yourself!!! And funny, if he didn't respond, you would say if the gap was so great how come he has no answer. Nice little circle you drew for yourself.

My post on Revelation was in response to you and your article on the A&W. It was not addressed to Jaltus, but I am glad he responded. I have enjoyed it to this point. However I had no idea he was your knight in shining armor. Hopefully for you he has some arrows in his quiver


Best Regards,
Cal