Excommunication

[Cello]

Do you think a church should be allowed to 'excommunicate' its erring members? Why or why not?

If so, What steps should be taken? What 'infractions' warrant this?

If we do not 'excommunicate' then will the church continue to be drug down deeper and deeper into moral demise until it looks no different than the rest of the world?

[elysian]

"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NIV)

This link is long but the whole chapter is relevant;
2 Peter 2

There are serious consequences not only for the individual but also for the church to condone immoral living and to allow the teaching and belief of unsound doctrine. Therefore it is a sad necessity when a person blatantly and unashamedly lives in unrepentant sin to expel him or her from the church. All of us are sinners, but we must also repent of our sin and be open to right teaching.

[bar Jonah]

1 Corinthians 5

An individual in a church who is so unrepentantly wicked that he poses a danger to the body.... Paul exhorts the church to kick this individual out, to "hand him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." He is to be rejected, turned away. If you want to use the Catholic term, so be it.

[Cello]

"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NIV)

This link is long but the whole chapter is relevant;
2 Peter 2

There are serious consequences not only for the individual but also for the church to condone immoral living and to allow the teaching and belief of unsound doctrine. Therefore it is a sad necessity when a person blatantly and unashamedly lives in unrepentant sin to expel him or her from the church. All of us are sinners, but we must also repent of our sin and be open to right teaching.

I agree with you and I think the key that people often overlook is REPENTENCE. For we all sin, we are ALL guilty of idolatry (I believe) at the very least.

Would you apply this to all sin evenly or only to those which can be categorized within the list above ?

[Cello]

1 Corinthians 5

An individual in a church who is so unrepentantly wicked that he poses a danger to the body.... Paul exhorts the church to kick this individual out, to "hand him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." He is to be rejected, turned away. If you want to use the Catholic term, so be it.

Its not about catholic term...unless of course you mean as in like "believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting." yadda yadda yadda

What often concerns me is that the church body should be a place where sinners can come and hear the news and be taught.....we are all sinners.....I think the sticking point is if there is repentance or not. And even that I find can be a fine line to walk. I think the church needs to be very careful in how it judges its own.

Do you have any recommendations to offer for this or are you a root 'em and boot 'em kinda person?

[Durthorin]

As a non-Christian matter of interest. I turned from Christianity over 19 years ago and am a devout practicing Pagan/Wiccan. Yet when I married my wife I promised her that I would not let her go to Church alone as she remarked many women did. Since that promise I have always attended with her. Now by Christian doctrine I am unabashidly an unrepentant sinner and continue in my wicked ways. I do not make my views known and politly discourage attempts to convert me but by the take of some in this discussion would you think the Church better served if I was barred from attending with my wife?

Danu Bless, Dur

[elysian]

I agree with you and I think the key that people often overlook is REPENTENCE. For we all sin, we are ALL guilty of idolatry (I believe) at the very least.

Would you apply this to all sin evenly or only to those which can be categorized within the list above ?

I think booting someone out has to be an absolute last resort and I think the offense should be applied as to "how much harm is it doing to the Body of Christ?" For instance a person who actively teaches false doctrine that turns people from Christ (such as teaching that Jesus wasn't really God, denying His sacrifice on the Cross, etc.- seriously wrong stuff) is clearly dangerous. The person who merely overeats or smokes is not nearly as dangerous to the greater church and is likely seeking freedom from those forms of bondage.

Unrepentance is also a major factor as I said. If we are open to the Holy Spirit He transforms and changes us to conform to His will (Romans 12:1-2) and we will humbly surrender to righteous correction and will come to repentance. If we are defiant and claim we are without sin we are liars and hypocrites and are clearly a danger to the rest of the church.

I think the phrase "the church is a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints" says a lot about our mission. The church is a place for sinners who want to be healed of their sin, not for those who want to wallow in it or for those who want to whitewash it and pretend they are perfect saints.

[Cello]

As a non-Christian matter of interest. I turned from Christianity over 19 years ago and am a devout practicing Pagan/Wiccan. Yet when I married my wife I promised her that I would not let her go to Church alone as she remarked many women did. Since that promise I have always attended with her. Now by Christian doctrine I am unabashidly an unrepentant sinner and continue in my wicked ways. I do not make my views known and politly discourage attempts to convert me but by the take of some in this discussion would you think the Church better served if I was barred from attending with my wife?

Danu Bless, Dur

That seems to be the general consensus.

Personally, I am of mixed opinion on your particular situation. First, when you say 'the Church' I hope you mean the body and not the organization/corporation.....

I do have a couple questions for you. you said you don't make your views known and yet indicate that someone is trying to convert you - how is that exactly?

Is your wife 'christian' or just a church goer?

I'd like to share more with you on my feelings...but would wonder if you'd be so kind as to answer those questions first?

[Cello]

For instance a person who actively teaches false doctrine that turns people from Christ (such as teaching that Jesus wasn't really God, denying His sacrifice on the Cross, etc.- seriously wrong stuff) is not nearly as dangerous to the greater church as someone who overeats and smokes.

Is that really what you meant to say?? False doctrine is not as bad as smoking?

I think the phrase "the church is a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints" says a lot about our mission. The church is a place for sinners who want to be healed of their sin, not for those who want to wallow in it or for those who want to whitewash it and pretend they are perfect saints.

Amen to that. I thikn its important to note the part about " who WANT to be healed of their sin".

Can you look at the post by Dru(something or other...sorry can't remember the name) in this thread and give your opinion?

[bar Jonah]

Paul certainly makes it clear in Galatians 1:6-9 that a person who preaches a false gospel to the Body of Christ is also to be considered anathema (rejected, spurned).

[Durthorin]

That seems to be the general consensus.

Personally, I am of mixed opinion on your particular situation. First, when you say 'the Church' I hope you mean the body and not the organization/corporation.....

Both. But in this case let us say not darken the door of established house of Christian worship

I do have a couple questions for you. you said you don't make your views known and yet indicate that someone is trying to convert you - how is that exactly?

There are some that know my views from outside church. An some who do not know my religious leanings know my political beliefs which are decidly liberal in comparison to a conservative Sothern Baptist Church where my wife attends. As such I'm approched on those two tacks..In both cases when I'm in Church with my wife I decline to carry on the conversation. I simply say I will give it thought and/or prayer, let the person have their say and refrain from conduct that I believe might embrass my wife.

Is your wife 'christian' or just a church goer?

Devout Christian, raised Southern Baptist she is the daughter of the Deacon and President of the WMU of a small country church. iIn her universe no doubt she sees some sermon eventually bringing me back to the body of Christ.

I'd like to share more with you on my feelings...but would wonder if you'd be so kind as to answer those questions first?

Feel free.

Danu Bless, Dur

[elysian]

Amen to that. I thikn its important to note the part about " who WANT to be healed of their sin".

Can you look at the post by Dru(something or other...sorry can't remember the name) in this thread and give your opinion?

Durthorin. He asks, would it be better for him not to go to worship with his wife because he is an unrepentant sinner?

I would say there's no problem with him going with his wife because there's a difference between going to a worship service and belonging to the church. He is merely a guest or a spectator and does not participate in the life of the church. He's not teaching false doctrine or trying to draw others away from their faith. I would certainly hope he does not take Communion, but other than that I don't see a problem with him attending worship services.

[elysian]

Is that really what you meant to say?? False doctrine is not as bad as smoking?

No, that someone who smokes or overeats is not nearly as dangerous to the greater Body of Christ. He or she is in bondage to a sin but isn't spreading the sin around. Hopefully as they grow and mature in faith they will seek freedom from that bondage.

-I did correct the earlier post. I'm doing too many things at once and the thought train derailed too many times.

[Durthorin]

Durthorin. He asks, would it be better for him not to go to worship with his wife because he is an unrepentant sinner?

I would say there's no problem with him going with his wife because there's a difference between going to a worship service and belonging to the church. He is merely a guest or a spectator and does not participate in the life of the church. He's not teaching false doctrine or trying to draw others away from their faith. I would certainly hope he does not take Communion, but other than that I don't see a problem with him attending worship services.

Actually, I am a member of the Church in that when we joined I was a Christian an my letter was transfered. I have in a "secular" sense helped the church out when asked. To me its just volunteer work for an orginization and politly declined anything thats spirtual in nature. I also avoid taking communion since as a Pagan I see rituals as sacred and to take communion with my beliefs would be to dishonor a ritual that is sacred to the woman I love and a personal repudiation of the Gods I worship. What I have not done because in its own way it would start a furor is to go to the pastor and asked to be stricken from the rolls and my letter "destroyed".

Danu Bless, Dur

[bar Jonah]

I and GODISNOWHERE would disagree, as we do not hold that unbelievers should be going to church. A church is where believers primarily learn doctrine and fellowship as a body of believers. There is no place in that for an unbeliever. Indeed, bringing an unbeliever to church frequently creates a stumbling block for that person such that it can become more difficult than ever for them to come to Christ.


Dur, you are right to not participate in the Lord's Supper. It is explicitly only for members of the Body of Christ.