Heresy on Rapture

[tabibito]

I'm sad of people who believe such false prophets trying to wrestle the word of God to their destruction.

It is indeed sad: you should stop listening to them.

First, does one really believe that there will be a kingdom of God in the sky, or heaven? Such is an utter folly, because God cannot contain the heaven of heavens. (1King 8:27).

There will be a New Heaven and New Earth.

Does one really believe that there is really a place in heaven where Christ is sitting on the right hand of God? Read Isaiah 66:1, was heaven really speaking of spatial term? If you'll answer yes, you surely need more grow on spiritual understanding.

It would be kind of hard to deny, given that Stephen said that is what he saw.

The kingdom in heaven is actually established and the apostles were already sitting in their thrones. Paul said,


Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It says we are seated in heavenly places, not that the apostles were seated on thrones.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

We are translated from the dominion of darkness to the kingdom of heaven. The passage shows a change of citizenship, as it were: no longer under domain of darkness. The passage doesn't say anything about our location.

Obviously, these people who teach rapture does not really understand the prophecy, nor the kingdom of God.

By no means "obvious" to anyone who refuses to go cherry picking.

One thing, the earth will be given to the elect to dwell on earth forever (Psalm 37:9, 22, 29). And contrary to those rapture teachers, the earth will become the kingdom of God and his Christ!!!!! (Revelation 11:15).

New Earth - New Heaven, established after the rapture. Current Heaven and Current Earth will pass away.

If one really know what the kingdom of God is all about, he will not entertain such heresy.

Always worry when people make such free use of the word "heresy". They usually can't back their assertions with anything more than unfounded opinion.

[FarEastBird]

It is indeed sad: you should stop listening to them.

............

Always worry when people make such free use of the word "heresy". They usually can't back their assertions with anything more than unfounded opinion.

Personally, I don't have a problem whoever they are. What raises my concern is the dynamics that they create with a believer, as well as to the Christian communities; building up paranoia affecting ministries, even people's personal lives as christians. I believe that anyone who are involved in the leadership of the church should be aware of the consequences, and it is their duty to fight off these invisible enemies that may ruin christians. At any case, our battle is spiritual. And regardless how evil the people we face, we give them a hope of peace, love, and unity; and most of all the hope of eternal life.

[37818]

No, I don't believe that Christ truly went to a celestial place where he literally sat on the right hand of God. For speaking of the kingdom of God, and literally speaking of spatial sense, Isaiah says, " Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" (Isaiah 66:1) On the other hand, Paul was verily much alive when he wrote, " But God, ..... hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)2 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"(Eph 2:4-6) Paul is alive and he already sits in the heavenly places. Christ himself said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21). See also what Christ said in Matthew 8:11-12:

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11-12

Note where is the referred kingdom of heaven is. The said gathering of the saints implies that it will happen here on earth, yet it was said that they will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Also, two people ascended to heaven, Enoch and Elijah, but were not said to be taken in the kingdom of God. The same, Christ ascension to heaven does not necessarily mean that he went to a celestial place.

Well then, do you deny Jesus is now a resurrected immortal man?

"For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . . " -- 1 Timothy 2:5.
And, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . . " -- Hebrews 9:24.

. . . Psalms 37:29, which says, "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

Revelation 11:15 gives us a clear message that the kingdom of God will be established here on earth forever, which will happen as what God promised in Psalm 37:29 that the righteous shall inherit the earth.

What 1Thessalonians 4:17 says is simply an spiritual experience as when Paul was made to sit in the heavenly places. In verse 16, Christ himself will descend from heaven, meaning he will be here on earth. AFAIK, the promise to Christ is to inherit the kingdom of David that has no end. Very much in line with the prophecy on Rev 11:15, and Psalms 37:29.

So then does that mean you deny, ". . . to be absent from the body, . . .[is] to be present with the Lord. " -- 2 Corinthians 5:8?

And do you acknowledge that only those who are born of God will even see God's kingdom? (John 3:3.)

[FarEastBird]

Well then, do you deny Jesus is now a resurrected immortal man?

"For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . . " -- 1 Timothy 2:5.

I do not have any problem at all of Jesus Christ as a man, who is a mediator between God and men. But I cannot visualize/imagine/understand how would God become a man, so I'm very much happy if we agree that Jesus is a man. I would accept ignorance if you truly understand your trinitarian doctrine. I believe that salvation is a given through mercy by giving us the understanding of the godhead. If you truly understand what you believe, then I am witness of myself that I cannot save myself through my own will.

Now, and again, just because Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus, were ascended to heaven, does not necessarily meant that they were in a celestial place. I want to add that Philip was also "caught up" but he came back to earth. So what if people get "caught up"?

Believing in a celestial kingdom is actually problematic when relate it to the nature of God.

And, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . . " -- Hebrews 9:24.

It is written in some places in the bible where it clearly said that God was present in earth, do you really take those are literal? Was not the God in the burning bush who spoke to Moses, was actually an angel? Does it nor openly believed by Jews, as it was told them, that God dwelt in the temple? But did not David and Isaiah clearly say that those things should not be taken literally?

As concerning the heaven you are quoting, the heaven itself refers to dominion, of which, as I was telling you of Paul, Paul is himself sitting in heaven with Christ, yet he is still living in earth(see Eph 2:6). Let me explain how these things happens.

Note of what Isaiah says: "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. (Isaiah 51:16). God says that he will plant the "heavens" and lay the foundation of the "earth" in Israel. What he really meant of the "heavens" is the heirarchy of leadership in Israel. And we can have a clear reference of this through Matthew 8:11-12, and Matthew 21:43-45.

Consider also Abraham who left his former habitation to look for a city that which it's maker is God. If the city that is being referred is in the celestial place, Hebrew would not had bothered to say that Abraham left his former habitation to look for that city. For indeed, Jerusalem was the city of God! These, by the spirit, is implying that the city of God will be here on earth. We also are being given a hint about the temple as a shadow of God's dwelling place, while at the same time, Israel were always told that the "people" are God's dwelling place. Is God contradicting himself in these things? No, rather it gives us a clear understanding that what God meant "to dwell" does not imply of spatial sense, but to imply that where God dwells makes the place, or a thing, holy. So, in figurative words, these things/place/people who are holy becomes the heavens where God dwells. So when God planted "heavens" in Israel is implying of them being made a holy people/place/thing for God. And what more could you say of the apostle and disciples of Christ that embodies the truth of holiness? These saints who are made holy are, in figurative word, "in the heavens" with God. And that is what Paul meant in Ephesians 2:6.

So then does that mean you deny, ". . . to be absent from the body, . . .[is] to be present with the Lord. " -- 2 Corinthians 5:8?

Speaking of the truth about our physical being, Paul said, "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." Are you saying then that when we resurrect we become worst because we are in the body? Paul was not speaking of physical but spiritual.

But rather read what is said in verse 7: "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)." Did Paul really mean that they are not using their eyes when they walk? So from that verse, understand what Paul meant of "absent from the body;" Paul was referring to being not under the flesh/physical. If you walk by faith, you are holy, and holy meant being in the heavens, in the presence of God, and with Christ, and with the saints.

And do you acknowledge that only those who are born of God will even see God's kingdom? (John 3:3.)

If you are born of God, you would claim the same what Paul claimed: sitting in the heavenly places. You do not see the heavens because you are not born again.

Truth be told, the word of God is hidden so that only the chosen can decode them. God did it intentionally to reveal the hearts of men.

[Bill the Cat]

FEB, are you claiming "Kingdom now" theology, also called "Dominion theology"?

[Littlejoe]

FEB, are you also claiming that Jesus is only a man? Appointed by God to be a mediator, but is not divine?

[FarEastBird]

FEB, are you claiming "Kingdom now" theology, also called "Dominion theology"?

No.




JFYI.


There is a difference of speaking of the spiritual kingdom of God to that of the physical Kingdom of God. People should not be mixed up whenever we read these things in the scripture. People have read what Paul speaks of things that pertains to attaining to enter the spiritual kingdom of God, and those people mistake it and to be literal, even literally meant to enter into a physical kingdom. A good example I can give you now is 37818’s interpretation of 2Cor 5:8. Paul himself speaks of deep mysteries that even Peter himself said “speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood…” So when Paul speaks of the “last trump,” the “resurrection,” of being “changed/clothed with immortality;” these are spiritual things. Understanding these mysteries should be drawn from understanding the truth of salvation.


Now, Israel is a physical kingdom of God, not the spiritual one. It is called the kingdom of God for it is a nation picked by God to show off his glory. The kingdom of God does not necessarily meant all of those belonging to the nation of Israel are elect, nevertheless God picked the nation of Israel as his kingdom.


Christ came to gather Israel; but Israel will not be gathered (Isa 49:5-6). Instead, the prophecy foretold: The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. (Isa 56:8) And Jesus himself said to the disciples, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold…”(John 10:16). Who then is this other fold?


Isaiah 49:5-6 and Isaiah 11:10-12 was clearly speaking of Christ to be received by the Gentiles. But Christ ministry was limited to the Jews (Matthew 15:24), and rather, Christ had appointed Paul as his apostle to the Gentiles (Act 13:46-47). But Paul says that he was not sent to the Gentiles at his time but of the Gentiles that will believe in the future (Acts 28:28). In his epistle to the Romans, Paul was not claiming apostleship to the Gentiles of their time (Romans 15:20-23), rather accounting the Gentiles as under Peter's authority(on Peter's foundation of apostleship); as Peter himself claimed that the Gentiles of their day believed through him (Acts 15:7). Rather, in verse 22, Paul was rather speaking of people who was propesied to hear the gospel spoken is Isaiah 52:15, when the nations will in Christ. In line with these, Paul wrote of a day in his future in which the saints will believe through his gospel, obviously referring of his epistles (Romans 2:16); and thus is where Paul's apostleship hanged.


But the salvation of the Gentiles would not come unless the Jews were to fall first (Rom 11:25). Christ openly told the Jews that the kingdom of God will be taken away from them (Matthew 21:43-45). And Isaiah prophesied of a time where the Jews' offering were rejected of God while accepting the offering of a Gentile nation Isaiah 65:1-2. I am waiting for that Gentile nation in the prophecy.



I guess this is enough information for anyone to distinguish me from all others.

[37818]

I do not have any problem at all of Jesus Christ as a man, who is a mediator between God and men. But I cannot visualize/imagine/understand how would God become a man, so I'm very much happy if we agree that Jesus is a man. I would accept ignorance if you truly understand your trinitarian doctrine. I believe that salvation is a given through mercy by giving us the understanding of the godhead. If you truly understand what you believe, then I am witness of myself that I cannot save myself through my own will.

Jesus was truly a man. But preexisted as God and Creator (John 1:1, 3. Colossians 1:16, 17). And as the man He was a sinless man being also God in the flesh. Since only God is good (Luke 18:19). He had to be a sinless Savior (1 John 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Now, and again, just because Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus, were ascended to heaven, does not necessarily meant that they were in a celestial place. I want to add that Philip was also "caught up" but he came back to earth. So what if people get "caught up"?

The resurrection is both a spiritual and physical event. As will be the rapture "shall be caught up." Noting Jesus when He returns will be bring those who went to heaven without a physical body with Him when He comes (v.14).

Believing in a celestial kingdom is actually problematic when relate it to the nature of God.

No it is not. Since God is by His very nature omnipresent. That He has appointed a place, called the heaven of heavens, the third heaven, beyond temporal space time, cannot limit God. There is a place (Romans 8:34). And God is also in every place [omnipresent] (Acts 17:28, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; . . .").

It is written in some places in the bible where it clearly said that God was present in earth, do you really take those are literal? Was not the God in the burning bush who spoke to Moses, was actually an angel? Does it nor openly believed by Jews, as it was told them, that God dwelt in the temple? But did not David and Isaiah clearly say that those things should not be taken literally?

No problem. All the temporal appearances of God was none other than the Son of God (John 1:18; John 14:6, 9). Also compare Genesis 19:24 with John 3:13 (KJV, NKJV).

As concerning the heaven you are quoting, the heaven itself refers to dominion, of which, as I was telling you of Paul, Paul is himself sitting in heaven with Christ, yet he is still living in earth(see Eph 2:6). Let me explain how these things happens.

Note of what Isaiah says: "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. (Isaiah 51:16). God says that he will plant the "heavens" and lay the foundation of the "earth" in Israel. What he really meant of the "heavens" is the heirarchy of leadership in Israel. And we can have a clear reference of this through Matthew 8:11-12, and Matthew 21:43-45.

Consider also Abraham who left his former habitation to look for a city that which it's maker is God. If the city that is being referred is in the celestial place, Hebrew would not had bothered to say that Abraham left his former habitation to look for that city. For indeed, Jerusalem was the city of God! These, by the spirit, is implying that the city of God will be here on earth. We also are being given a hint about the temple as a shadow of God's dwelling place, while at the same time, Israel were always told that the "people" are God's dwelling place. Is God contradicting himself in these things? No, rather it gives us a clear understanding that what God meant "to dwell" does not imply of spatial sense, but to imply that where God dwells makes the place, or a thing, holy. So, in figurative words, these things/place/people who are holy becomes the heavens where God dwells. So when God planted "heavens" in Israel is implying of them being made a holy people/place/thing for God. And what more could you say of the apostle and disciples of Christ that embodies the truth of holiness? These saints who are made holy are, in figurative word, "in the heavens" with God. And that is what Paul meant in Ephesians 2:6.

The truth of Ephesians 2:6 does not negate the "ages to come" v.7. "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; . . ." -- Titus 2:13. ". . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, . . ." -- Philippians 2:20, 21.

Speaking of the truth about our physical being, Paul said, "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die." Are you saying then that when we resurrect we become worst because we are in the body? Paul was not speaking of physical but spiritual.

But rather read what is said in verse 7: "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)." Did Paul really mean that they are not using their eyes when they walk? So from that verse, understand what Paul meant of "absent from the body;" Paul was referring to being not under the flesh/physical. If you walk by faith, you are holy, and holy meant being in the heavens, in the presence of God, and with Christ, and with the saints.

Paul was not speaking of "blind" faith which Christ denied (Matthew 15:14). But the walk of the just (Habbakuh 2:4; Romans 1:17). And Paul was talking about going to heaven when he or a believer dies.

If you are born of God, you would claim the same what Paul claimed: sitting in the heavenly places. You do not see the heavens because you are not born again.

Truth be told, the word of God is hidden so that only the chosen can decode them. God did it intentionally to reveal the hearts of men.

Note what I cited above.

[FarEastBird]

Jesus was truly a man. But preexisted as God and Creator (John 1:1, 3. Colossians 1:16, 17). And as the man He was a sinless man being also God in the flesh. Since only God is good (Luke 18:19). He had to be a sinless Savior (1 John 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

The preexistence of Christ is but of Christ being God's purpose in creating all things; a concept, an idea. Note John 1:1 says "was with God"; it does not say "with the Father."


As for God to exist in a flesh, nor of making a part of God(only Christ) as a man, that is truly beyond my imagination. If you truly understand these things that you are believing, then I would submit to my fate; truly, I believe that man cannot know God except he reveals himself to us.

The resurrection is both a spiritual and physical event. As will be the rapture "shall be caught up." Noting Jesus when He returns will be bring those who went to heaven without a physical body with Him when He comes (v.14).

I would like to remind you that, at the first, man lived for hundred of years; and so I believe that if God will make us live eternally with the same physical make up, it is surely possible for to him to do so. In any case, the difference of the spirit and the body is problematic; for even human themselves are not actually sure if they have the spirit -- they just claim to have it. And also, to me, the spirit is unnecessary. For if my human-ness, or of my present being-ness, is judged on my physicality(or as I exist now), then what is the use of me being judged in the spirit, of which I truly do not have an idea of about existing as a spirit?


What I believe is that the human being is just a material being (Gen 3:19). The spirit that returns to God (THE SPIRIT DOES NOT GO TO HELL Ecc 12:7) refers to our "living, moving, and being." Just as how our physical body returns to earth, likewise our "living, moving, and being" returns to God. Just as how the earth is the source of our body, samewise God is the source of "our living, moving and being" (Acts 17:28)


Now, Paul said in 2Cor 5:17 that if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW creature, OLD THINGS are PASSED AWAY, ALL THINGS, are BECOME NEW." The fact is, Christ himself says that we passed into immortality when we come to hear (understand) his word (John 5:24). So what is the use of speaking of literal sense of being physically changed to go to immortality? What Paul speak of the ressurection and of being change to be in heaven, simply speaks of becoming born again in Christ; becoming a new creature, to enter the kingdom of God. Paul himself speaks of mysteries; just like Jesus did.


The thing is, that Christ, as well as the disciples, speaks from above, speaking the mysteries in figurative word. Yet people usually interprets their word literally.

No it is not. Since God is by His very nature omnipresent. That He has appointed a place, called the heaven of heavens, the third heaven, beyond temporal space time, cannot limit God. There is a place (Romans 8:34). And God is also in every place [omnipresent] (Acts 17:28, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; . . .").

I do not believe in a heaven that is "beyond temporal space time." Such is certainly a doctrine of men. Honestly, it is not worth discussing things which one cannot even have a comprehension of how these things will play in the real world.

No problem. All the temporal appearances of God was none other than the Son of God (John 1:18; John 14:6, 9). Also compare Genesis 19:24 with John 3:13 (KJV, NKJV).

Moses told the Jews of the coming of Jesus Christ, but he never said that it was God. Some have accounted Melchizedek as a theophany of Jesus, yet Christ came to flesh only when he was born. The Jews never believed of such things.

The truth of Ephesians 2:6 does not negate the "ages to come" v.7. "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; . . ." -- Titus 2:13. ". . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, . . ." -- Philippians 2:20, 21.

Christ, indeed, will come again to reign here on earth. And as God clearly says in Psalms, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Christ would not come, only after, all his enemies were under his feet. Christ's work was done here on earth; as he said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Now, there is a prophecy of the fall of Israel, and of the famine of the word, and of the coming of a Gentile nation. The Gentile would come after the fall of Israel, and of the famine of the word, and thus this Gentile nation will come to know the gospel in the absence of teachers (Isa 52:15, Rom 15:21). Isaiah 65:1-2 is so clear of speaking of a nation that offers pleasing sacrifice to God, while Israel is fallen into apostasy. Jesus himself was so clear of foretelling the Jews of their apostasy and of the kingdom of God being given to another nation (Matt 21:43-45). These prophesies are very clear that it must be a work of God why the wise men would not even understand its clarity.


Before Christ comes, he will send his angel with the trumpet, (ushering the age of the feast of trumpets,) to gather the elect (Matt 24:31). It will be the angels who will gather the elect in the end times, not Christ. Christ will descend from heaven at blowing of the last trumpet. Christ will descend only when the last trump was blown, and after God had put all of Christ's enemies under his feet.


The above is what will happen. The resurrection to immortality at the appearing of Christ is simply the spiritual experience when we come to know/see Christ, when Christ appear in our hearts. Paul's idea of the resurrection was of spiritual, speaking of both the physical and spiritual coming of Christ to explain the mystery of salvation.

Paul was not speaking of "blind" faith which Christ denied (Matthew 15:14). But the walk of the just (Habbakuh 2:4; Romans 1:17). And Paul was talking about going to heaven when he or a believer dies.


......


Note what I cited above.

You failed to understand verse 8, so doubtful you really know what Christ was truly talking about "walking by faith."

[37818]

The preexistence of Christ is but of Christ being God's purpose in creating all things; a concept, an idea. Note John 1:1 says "was with God"; it does not say "with the Father."

That is an excellent observation. Since the Word was both "with God" and "was God" verse 2 restates "with God." And v.3 identifies Him as God of Genesis 1:1 (see Colossians 1:16, 17).

As for God to exist in a flesh, nor of making a part of God(only Christ) as a man, that is truly beyond my imagination. If you truly understand these things that you are believing, then I would submit to my fate; truly, I believe that man cannot know God except he reveals himself to us.

No. God is not in parts. God is not part man. Now the Word who became flesh was both God and man. God is not man. And man is not God. Yet the Word we know as Jesus Christ was and is both God and man. Thomas understood that when he addressed Him as both "My Lord and my God." (see John 14:6-9 also.)

I would like to remind you that, at the first, man lived for hundred of years; and so I believe that if God will make us live eternally with the same physical make up, it is surely possible for to him to do so. In any case, the difference of the spirit and the body is problematic; for even human themselves are not actually sure if they have the spirit -- they just claim to have it. And also, to me, the spirit is unnecessary. For if my human-ness, or of my present being-ness, is judged on my physicality(or as I exist now), then what is the use of me being judged in the spirit, of which I truly do not have an idea of about existing as a spirit?

See Romans 8:23.

What I believe is that the human being is just a material being (Gen 3:19). The spirit that returns to God (THE SPIRIT DOES NOT GO TO HELL Ecc 12:7) refers to our "living, moving, and being." Just as how our physical body returns to earth, likewise our "living, moving, and being" returns to God. Just as how the earth is the source of our body, samewise God is the source of "our living, moving and being" (Acts 17:28)

Jesus taught killing the body does not kill the soul (Matthew 10:28). And that Hades the Nether World is a real place (Luke 16:19-31. Regarding Moses see Deuteronomy 32:22).

Now, Paul said in 2Cor 5:17 that if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW creature, OLD THINGS are PASSED AWAY, ALL THINGS, are BECOME NEW." The fact is, Christ himself says that we passed into immortality when we come to hear (understand) his word (John 5:24). So what is the use of speaking of literal sense of being physically changed to go to immortality? What Paul speak of the ressurection and of being change to be in heaven, simply speaks of becoming born again in Christ; becoming a new creature, to enter the kingdom of God. Paul himself speaks of mysteries; just like Jesus did.

The immortality is in the future resurrection and rapture.

The thing is, that Christ, as well as the disciples, speaks from above, speaking the mysteries in figurative word. Yet people usually interprets their word literally.

Words have literal meanings, the figurative, where it is comes from reading the literal (note Revelation 1:20 as a case in point). see also John 8:47.

I do not believe in a heaven that is "beyond temporal space time." Such is certainly a doctrine of men. Honestly, it is not worth discussing things which one cannot even have a comprehension of how these things will play in the real world.

Then explain how paradise went from Hades (Luke 23:42, 43; Acts 2:27; Acts 1:11; Ephesians 4:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) to the third heaven?

Moses told the Jews of the coming of Jesus Christ, but he never said that it was God. Some have accounted Melchizedek as a theophany of Jesus, yet Christ came to flesh only when he was born. The Jews never believed of such things.

I do not believe Melchizedek was a theophany. But I do believe all appearances of the LORD to be the Son of God (John 1:18, KJV, NKJV John 12:39-41; Isaiah 6:5, 9).

Christ, indeed, will come again to reign here on earth. And as God clearly says in Psalms, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Christ would not come, only after, all his enemies were under his feet. Christ's work was done here on earth; as he said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And is not at issue.

Now, there is a prophecy of the fall of Israel, and of the famine of the word, and of the coming of a Gentile nation. The Gentile would come after the fall of Israel, and of the famine of the word, and thus this Gentile nation will come to know the gospel in the absence of teachers (Isa 52:15, Rom 15:21). Isaiah 65:1-2 is so clear of speaking of a nation that offers pleasing sacrifice to God, while Israel is fallen into apostasy. Jesus himself was so clear of foretelling the Jews of their apostasy and of the kingdom of God being given to another nation (Matt 21:43-45). These prophesies are very clear that it must be a work of God why the wise men would not even understand its clarity.


Before Christ comes, he will send his angel with the trumpet, (ushering the age of the feast of trumpets,) to gather the elect (Matt 24:31). It will be the angels who will gather the elect in the end times, not Christ. Christ will descend from heaven at blowing of the last trumpet. Christ will descend only when the last trump was blown, and after God had put all of Christ's enemies under his feet.

The rapture and then the Father putting all the enemies under Christ's feet.

The above is what will happen. The resurrection to immortality at the appearing of Christ is simply the spiritual experience when we come to know/see Christ, when Christ appear in our hearts. Paul's idea of the resurrection was of spiritual, speaking of both the physical and spiritual coming of Christ to explain the mystery of salvation.

You can think that if you want to.

You failed to understand verse 8, so doubtful you really know what Christ was truly talking about "walking by faith."

I do not misunderstand it. I believe it. As the Apostle Paul is there now in his spirit. (1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul now being "face to face.")

[FarEastBird]

That is an excellent observation. Since the Word was both "with God" and "was God" verse 2 restates "with God." And v.3 identifies Him as God of Genesis 1:1 (see Colossians 1:16, 17).

No. God is not in parts. God is not part man. Now the Word who became flesh was both God and man. God is not man. And man is not God. Yet the Word we know as Jesus Christ was and is both God and man. Thomas understood that when he addressed Him as both "My Lord and my God." (see John 14:6-9 also.)

Excellent!!!!

I do not have problem claiming Christ as a our god, and our lord. But there is a God whom we refer as the "God of gods" and "Lord of lords"(Deut 10:17). And Moses says to Israel, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" (Deut 6:4)

Now read what Paul wrote:

1Cor 8:5-7
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Now, you trinitarians believe that Jesus and the Father are both Lords and Gods. But you also believe that the Father is not the Son. But then, Paul said that to them the ONE God is the Father. So, clearly, even applying your understanding of the trinity, you must admit that the Father is the only true God; Christ himself said so(John 17:3).

Also, obviously you believe that the Father is not the Lord Jesus Christ, thus one can clearly understand that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christs speaks of two lords. Even the prophesy in Psalms clearly states that the Father who sits on the throne is a different Lord to the Lord Christ who sits on his right hand (Psalms 110:1). But then who is the true Lord of lords?

Paul wrote:

1Cor 15:27-28
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So when then is the true Lord of lords? Clearly from above, it is the Father. Jesus himself said, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)

So, the Father is the true God of gods and Lord of lords.

See Romans 8:23.

See John 3:31.

Jesus taught killing the body does not kill the soul (Matthew 10:28). And that Hades the Nether World is a real place (Luke 16:19-31. Regarding Moses see Deuteronomy 32:22).

The book of Matthew says, "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Luke 16:19-31 is certainly a parable. People who speak earthly will surely not be able to discern it.

Now, Deuteronomy 32:22 is surely a parable. If hell be a place of fire, what is the need that fire would engulf it? Hell is a place where the "soul" is corrupted. It is understandable that the soul refers to the physical body, and of the hell to refer to the grave, according to Stephen's explanation of Christ's soul not left on the grave to see corruption; not tortured.

The immortality is in the future resurrection and rapture.

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

2Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Words have literal meanings, the figurative, where it is comes from reading the literal (note Revelation 1:20 as a case in point). see also John 8:47.

Words, indeed, have literal meanings, and would indeed have literal correspondence. But understanding mysteries as mysteries does not rely on literal meaning. Case in point: 2Peter 3:8.

Do you really believe that Christ brought a literal sword? Do you literally believed that there were exactly 12,0000 that were saved in every tribes in Israel?

But in fairness, parts of the parables can indeed be literal. But when you come that your interpretations is getting into confusions, then you have to caution yourself and revisit your belief.

Then explain how paradise went from Hades (Luke 23:42, 43; Acts 2:27; Acts 1:11; Ephesians 4:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) to the third heaven?

I don't understand what you mean by "paradise went from Hades."

I do not misunderstand it. I believe it. As the Apostle Paul is there now in his spirit. (1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul now being "face to face.")

Does your belief imply that Paul is with Jesus right now, but he is not yet immortal?