Binding God

[steamer]

God seems to have repented many things in the bible. It appears that he changed his mind? If that is even possible, then he can change his mind again.

Even assuming the bible is true, is god bound by anything it says? If he is god and can do anything he wants, how is it he can't decide to forgive athiests for the sin of not believing, when they were clearly not given sufficient evidence to truthfully decide that they believe in the extremely unlikely birth and resurrection of Jesus?

[Andrew]

God is NOT free to do anything. He can only act within the limits of His nature. That nature is sin-hating. If you have not accepted Jesus as your saviour and, therefore, been justified, God CANNOT merely forgive you.

"is god bound by anything it says?"

God CANNOT lie.

[steamer]

God is NOT free to do anything. He can only act within the limits of His nature. That nature is sin-hating. If you have not accepted Jesus as your saviour and, therefore, been justified, God CANNOT merely forgive you.

"is god bound by anything it says?"

God CANNOT lie.

Well, if I had my choice of gods to worship and I do, I wouldn't pick one that lies either, but this one does.

I Kings 22:23
"Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."


Ezekiel 14:9
"And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

II Thessalonians 2:11
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.

[Jayrok]

God is NOT free to do anything. He can only act within the limits of His nature. That nature is sin-hating. If you have not accepted Jesus as your saviour and, therefore, been justified, God CANNOT merely forgive you.

"is god bound by anything it says?"

God CANNOT lie.

God told the son of man (ezekiel) that there will be an altar in the new temple in the new jerusalem, for the continuation of animal sacrifices. In this new Jerusalem, after God destroys the armies of Gog from gagog, he will live and reign on his throne forever, and the prince of his people will be King David. Nations of the earth will come and pay homage to God in his temple.

The NT writers say that after Jesus puts satan in the pit for 1000 years, he will release him for a time.. then destroy him once and for all.. He will be thrown into the lake of fire, along with all the other condemned sinners who died without Christ.. then God will build the new heavens and new earth and his holy kingdom will reign in Jerusalem forever with a throne for him and his son Jesus. However, there will be no temple nor an altar for sacrifices.


so which one of these is the truth?

Since God cannot tell a lie, I take it that the end times account in the NT is incorrect.

[jimbo]

So God is an admitted liar. Maybe he lied about "salvation." Maybe he will send all the Christians to hell and let all the non-Christians into heaven and give them their own mansions.

Wouldn't that be hilarious?

Jimbo

Disclaimer: I do not believe Christianity is true. I do not believe there is a god or gods of any kind.

[Xavier]

God seems to have repented many things in the bible. It appears that he changed his mind? If that is even possible, then he can change his mind again.

Open View Theists certainly believe that... I, however, do not. Favoring that the author was trying to better convey the point of the narrative. Esp. after Saul.

Even assuming the bible is true, is god bound by anything it says?

It's HIS revelation to us... Seems logical to assume that he would follow it.

If he is god and can do anything he wants, how is it he can't decide to forgive athiests for the sin of not believing, when they were clearly not given sufficient evidence to truthfully decide that they believe in the extremely unlikely birth and resurrection of Jesus?

"Clearly not given"... I have a pile of people who would disagree with you on that one...

Try reading N.T. Wright's The Resurrection of the Son of God or even JPH's Impossible Faith article...

Anywho... it ultimately has to do with the nature of sin. Sin, the act of turning away from God, leads to death. Cause and Effect seems aptly in play. Sin ---> Death
God ---> Life

Sin --- Covered by Christ ---> Life

Seems easy enough to me.

Yours,
Xavier

[steamer]

It's HIS revelation to us... Seems logical to assume that he would follow it.

Seems is a nice word. Yet any sense of justice you have is purely subjective as I recently and painfully have learned. God can do anything at all for any reason he likes and any ideas you have about him are purely subjective. I like the word seems though.

[Xavier]

Seems is a nice word.

I like to say it... Just sounds nice... Seems...

<snaps out of it>

Yet any sense of justice you have is purely subjective as I recently and painfully have learned.

Why rely on our "purely subjective" justice? God has got purely objective justice.

God can do anything at all for any reason he likes and any ideas you have about him are purely subjective.

God cannot do anything at all for any reason he likes... You've been told this already in this thread, and other have pontificated on it for pages elsewhere at TWeb.

Ideas of God can be subjective. It would depend on how you view in the interpretation of language. I think ultimately any ideas you draw from a text you place in your own cognitive framework, and thus, become somewhat subjective. However, that doesn't mean that your opinions on the nature of God come with Objective evidence. The whole notion of Sola Scriptura is for this very reason.

I like the word seems though.

Seems like we both do...

Yours,
Xavier

[steamer]

Why rely on our "purely subjective" justice? God has got purely objective justice.

Maybe, but you and I don't. Any assumption you or I make about god is subjective. Subjectivity is a double edged sword is it not? You cannot say that athiests cannot judge god and then go ahead and judge him yourself. If you can I'd like to know the secret.

God cannot do anything at all for any reason he likes... You've been told this already in this thread, and other have pontificated on it for pages elsewhere at TWeb.

Actually, if there is one, I think he can, you want to be the one that tells him he can't?

Ideas of God can be subjective. It would depend on how you view in the interpretation of language. I think ultimately any ideas you draw from a text you place in your own cognitive framework, and thus, become somewhat subjective. However, that doesn't mean that your opinions on the nature of God come with Objective evidence. The whole notion of Sola Scriptura is for this very reason.

Nope, just means there is no valid assumption you can make about god without it being merely subjective.

[Xavier]

Maybe, but you and I don't. Any assumption you or I make about god is subjective. Subjectivity is a double edged sword is it not?

Yes it is... However, do NOT assume that ANYTHING subjective is automatically bad or inaccurate. If subjective viewpoints can be substanciated from revelation, then they shouldn't simply be dismissed for being subjective. Yes, my view of God is subjective. However, that doesn't make my view of God inaccurate, especially since I try to base it on the best interpretation of reveleation I can.

You cannot say that athiests cannot judge god and then go ahead and judge him yourself.

I'm not "judging" God. I'm merely reiterating what HE has already said. God revealed to man through Scripture that he could not lie. In addition, through logic and reason, I believe God to have shown that he can't do everything (ie: a rock so big...).

If you can I'd like to know the secret.

Revelation and Logic. If you can support your opinion from revelation, then its not shooting blind.

Actually, if there is one, I think he can, you want to be the one that tells him he can't?

I don't have to... He told us himself.

Nope, just means there is no valid assumption you can make about god without it being merely subjective.

Again, you are quick to assume that anything subjective is wrong. ALL evidence is ultimately subjective since it must be intrepreted within a worldview. You can look at a flower and say "Wow! Randomness certainly did a good number for that one." I can say of the same flower: "Wow! God certainly did a good job creating."

As long as you can draw from a common standard, then the subjective opinion of the nature of God is not without grounding.

Yours,
Xavier

[steamer]

Yes it is... However, do NOT assume that ANYTHING subjective is automatically bad or inaccurate. If subjective viewpoints can be substanciated from revelation, then they shouldn't simply be dismissed for being subjective. Yes, my view of God is subjective. However, that doesn't make my view of God inaccurate, especially since I try to base it on the best interpretation of reveleation I can.

Revelation is a first person event. If god has revealed something to you personally, by all means believe it. If it is something not personally revealed to you, something you've heard or read, then it is not revelation, merely subjective interpretation. I don't assume that anything subjective is automatically wrong, it's just not necearily right.

I'm not "judging" God. I'm merely reiterating what HE has already said. God revealed to man through Scripture that he could not lie. In addition, through logic and reason, I believe God to have shown that he can't do everything (ie: a rock so big...).

The bible says some awful things about god. When I object to those things, everyone on this board says that god can do what he wants and any judgment I have of it is merely subjective. Any judgement you have is also merely subjective. The scriptures themselves plainly state that the god of the bible can and has lied.

I Kings 22:23
"Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

Ezekiel 14:9
"And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

II Thessalonians 2:11
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.

Revelation and Logic. If you can support your opinion from revelation, then its not shooting blind.

As I've said, revelation is a first person event. Moses had a revelation on the mountain with god. You've read a book and made subjective interpretations.

As long as you can draw from a common standard, then the subjective opinion of the nature of God is not without grounding.

I'd really like to agree with you on this but even if all men decided to create a standard, it is still merely subjective and not necessarily applicable to god.

[Xavier]

Revelation is a first person event. If god has revealed something to you personally, by all means believe it. If it is something not personally revealed to you, something you've heard or read, then it is not revelation, merely subjective interpretation.

I don't disagree with that per se... Just would say that the nature of revelation is a tad more complivated when one factors in the Spirit.

I don't assume that anything subjective is automatically wrong, it's just not necearily right.

Certainly not... Hense TheologyWeb exists.

The bible says some awful things about god. When I object to those things, everyone on this board says that god can do what he wants and any judgment I have of it is merely subjective. Any judgement you have is also merely subjective. The scriptures themselves plainly state that the god of the bible can and has lied.

Prove your grounds from Scripture and they might believe you... Let's look at your attempts:

I Kings 22:23

"Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

Now... In context,

1 Kings 22:19-23 ESV

And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.' Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Here we have Micaiah talking to the rather evil King of Israel at the time, Zedekiah... The Spirit tells God how is will entice the people. THEN God allows this deception to occur. God doesn't lie. He allows others to lie.

Ezekiel 14:9

"And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

Here's Clarke:

Clarke's Commentary on the Old Testement

That is, he ran before he was sent; he willingly became the servant of Satan’s illusions; and I suffered this to take place, because he and his followers refused to consult and serve me. I have often had occasion to remark that it is common in the Hebrew language to state a thing as done by the Lord which he only suffers or permits to be done; for so absolute and universal is the government of God, that the smallest occurrence cannot take place without his will or permission.

© source where applicable

See the theme growing here?

II Thessalonians 2:11

Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.

Clarke again:

Clarke's Commentary on the New Testement

For this very cause, that they would not receive the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, therefore God permits strong delusion to occupy their minds; so that they believe a lie rather than the truth, prefer false apostles and their erroneous doctrines to the pure truths of the Gospel, brought to them by the well-accredited messengers of God; being ever ready to receive any false Messiah, while they systematically and virulently reject the true one.

© source where applicable

Once again, we have God giving the people what they justly deserve. Exactly what they were asking for, if I might add.

It is also worthy of noting the symantic range on the Greek word πλάνη. Perhaps Jaltus can lend insight.

As I've said, revelation is a first person event. Moses had a revelation on the mountain with god. You've read a book and made subjective interpreations.

As have you... Now, we can attempt to come to a common understanding by truely evaluating the text at hand for what it is trying to say, rather than what we try to MAKE it say.

I'd really like to agree with you on this but even if all men decided to create a standard, it is still merely subjective and not necessarily applicable to god.

Except when that standard is scripture as handed down by revelation from God himself.

Yes, the translations and interpretation are subjective. However, they can still be handled in an objective manner in order to best discover what the original intent of the text was. This is how Christian Theology is supposed to work. Jaltus will have an article posted on the portal on this very topic shortly (once I finish proof-reading it).

Yours,
Xavier

[steamer]

Not trying to avoid you here xav, Just very late, I'll look at this in the morning. (12:35 am here). Also, I was just reading what the kjv translators said, was not trying to make it say anything.

[Xavier]

Not trying to avoid you here xav, Just very late, I'll look at this in the morning. (12:35 am here).

No problem... It's actually 3:39 am here...

Also, I was just reading what the kjv translators said, was not trying to make it say anything.

I don't honestly think we ever do... And I wasn't trying to say that you were reading into the text. Just pointing out that it is something we do all the time.

Well, see ya in the morning perhaps.

Yours,
Xavier

[steamer]

Prove your grounds from Scripture and they might believe you... Let's look at your attempts:

I Kings 22:23

"Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

Now... In context,

1 Kings 22:19-23 ESV

And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.' Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Here we have Micaiah talking to the rather evil King of Israel at the time, Zedekiah... The Spirit tells God how is will entice the people. THEN God allows this deception to occur. God doesn't lie. He allows others to lie.

So god says I need someone to entice Ahab. A spirit says "I'll go lie to them." God says, "Good idea, make it so, number 1" There doesn't seem to be any qualitative difference between approving the use of the lie and ordering it to happen than simply doing it yourself.

Ezekiel 14:9

"And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

Here's Clarke:

Clarke's Commentary on the Old Testement

That is, he ran before he was sent; he willingly became the servant of Satan’s illusions; and I suffered this to take place, because he and his followers refused to consult and serve me. I have often had occasion to remark that it is common in the Hebrew language to state a thing as done by the Lord which he only suffers or permits to be done; for so absolute and universal is the government of God, that the smallest occurrence cannot take place without his will or permission.

© source where applicable

[/QUOTE]
I don't see how Clarke got all that from what this verse plainly says.

See the theme growing here?

II Thessalonians 2:11

Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.

Clarke again:

Clarke's Commentary on the New Testement

For this very cause, that they would not receive the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, therefore God permits strong delusion to occupy their minds; so that they believe a lie rather than the truth, prefer false apostles and their erroneous doctrines to the pure truths of the Gospel, brought to them by the well-accredited messengers of God; being ever ready to receive any false Messiah, while they systematically and virulently reject the true one.

© source where applicable

The verse says god sends, it doesn't say he permits. Perhaps the word was wrongly translated, but that is not what it says.

Except when that standard is scripture as handed down by revelation from God himself.

Yes, the translations and interpretation are subjective. However, they can still be handled in an objective manner in order to best discover what the original intent of the text was. This is how Christian Theology is supposed to work. Jaltus will have an article posted on the portal on this very topic shortly (once I finish proof-reading it).

Yours,
Xavier

As I said, revelation is a first person event. It cannot be handed down. The scripture itself is highly subjective, which is why it's been argued over for so long and requires subjective commentaries like Clarkes. To say that the bible is or is not the word of god boils down to subjective opinion. There is no objective standard available in which to base an opinion that god is bound by the words of the bible.