Re: Michael Brown

[Cow Poke]

Semantic quibble, perhaps, but does shoving someone out of the way actually qualify as assault?

Absolutely. Are you really this IGNORANT of principles of law? I'm guessing yes, which is why you're having such a hard time processing this.

Take away the "allegedly punching a cop in the face" part (since, as you admit, it's only alleged at this point and we don't know if it actually happened), and it really doesn't sound that different from things some other teenagers do.

Wow--- yeah, OTHER teenagers steel stuff, then when they see a cop, instead of walking the OTHER way, they APPROACH him.

[robrecht]

Agreed, but I think black leadership could do a whole lot more on this. Guys like Al Sharpton have a vested interest in aggravating, not solving, this issue. Both Obama and Holder SHOULD have appealed for calm, and "let's wait for the FACTS before we jump to conclusions", but they, in my opinion, have only inflamed this problem.

It should also be noted that HALF of all murders in the united states are blacks, and the VAST MAJORITY of those murders are committed by blacks. So why is this ONE death so more important than the 6,000 to 7,000 blacks who are murdered each year by blacks?

I agree. For example the fact that blacks commit a grossly disproportionate amount of crime is a notable inequality that needs to be addressed, and the black community in general needs to be held accountable for their mixture of apathy towards crime and violence committed by blacks (mostly against other blacks) and their toxic attitudes towards black people who don't reflexively side with thugs and white people who ventilate black males trying to kill them.

I know firsthand that black v black violence is a terrible problem. I think the assurance that there will be a thorough federal investigation did have a calming effect. I have not followed this story closely so I can't speak to what Obama & Co. were doing until a day or two ago.

[Teallaura]

I know it is a terrible problem of black violence. I think the assurance that there will be a thorough federal investigation did have a calming effect. I have not followed this story closely so I can't speak to what Obama & Co. were doing until a day or two ago.

Hard to know for sure - it had been going on for so long and with so much resistance that we may just be seeing it burn itself out.

[rogue06]

And that's all that's relevant here. Doesn't matter how big and scary he might've looked. He was 18, barely old enough to qualify as an adult, with a brain that still hadn't finished developing.

This is just bizarre. Are you seriously saying that if a 6.4' 300 lb. person who it seems very likely had just punched you in the face hard enough to break bones is now charging at you this ought to be dismissed because he was only 18 years old? Even if in some weird way this is the case how in the world was Wilson supposed to know his age?

Still under debate, technically--yes, the friend allegedly confirmed that it was a robbery, but that leaves the questions of what exactly was going on in the video, and why (according to St. Louis news) the clerk and staff didn't call 911.

There are many reasons shop owners/clerks don't call the police after incidents like this. Insurance premiums might be one.

A friend of mine from several years back and who is an immigrant used to own a convenience store. She never called the police because she came from a culture where the police tend to shake victims down for bribes and that has colored her perspective.

Semantic quibble, perhaps, but does shoving someone out of the way actually qualify as assault?

Absolutely. Even when the assailant isn't nearly three times the victim's size.

Take away the "allegedly punching a cop in the face" part (since, as you admit, it's only alleged at this point and we don't know if it actually happened), and it really doesn't sound that different from things some other teenagers do.

Saying that "some other teens do" similar things is hardly an excuse. "Some other teens" are in violent street gangs and have participated in homicides. Does that somehow excuse it when someone else does it?

I was quite a handful as a teen. Wasn't beyond "skirting the law" if not outright breaking it (always avoided committing felonies). But it would never have crossed my mind, nor any of my rowdy friends, to go out and commit a strong armed robbery.

He was shot and killed about 35 feet away from the car. You're telling me that he could beat someone to death from there?

The average person can cover that distance in a matter of seconds. If he was indeed charging at Wilson it would be insane for him to wait until he was literally on top of him to open fire.

Do we know for a fact that he was actually running towards the officer?

It appears there are a dozen eyewitnesses that confirm this. He most certainly wasn't running away like many of those who claim that Brown was viciously gunned down without provocation in that the autopsy commissioned by the family shows all the shots entered from the front.

You're assuming he actually did punch him in the face when that's not yet confirmed. Wait for the facts, remember?

But there is corroborating evidence for it. It isn't merely some baseless claim.

Still, the evidence hasn't been adequately examined nor the witnesses cross-examined so nothing can be said definitively.

[Cow Poke]

I know it is a terrible problem of black violence. I think the assurance that there will be a thorough federal investigation did have a calming effect.

But I think there are unintended consequences... it left people with the impression that Wilson will be indicted and probably convicted. What happens if the grand jury declines to recommend prosecution, or if there IS prosecution and Wilson is found not guilty due to self defense? I think we go back to extreme rioting.

I have not followed this story closely so I can't speak to what Obama & Co. were doing until a day or two ago.

They have implied that they are on Brown's side, and will prosecute this aggressively --- they will find justice "for Brown's family". From the nutty governor of Missouri to Obama to Holder, it sounds like they're assuring the people "that cop gonna go to jail".

[robrecht]

But I think there are unintended consequences... it left people with the impression that Wilson will be indicted and probably convicted. What happens if the grand jury declines to recommend prosecution, or if there IS prosecution and Wilson is found not guilty due to self defense? I think we go back to extreme rioting.

I did not get that impression, but I'm not part of the critical audience.

They have implied that they are on Brown's side, and will prosecute this aggressively --- they will find justice "for Brown's family". From the nutty governor of Missouri to Obama to Holder, it sounds like they're assuring the people "that cop gonna go to jail".

I heard that from the governor. Did not think Obama & Holder were speaking in this vein, but, like I say, I've only followed this for the last 2-3 days.

[Cow Poke]

I did not get that impression, but I'm not part of the critical audience.

Understood -- Holder, in my opinion, went overboard in attempting to "identify" with the blacks, even pointing out that HE was black, and didn't trust the police.

Source: TheGuardian

The Attorney General told community leaders on Wednesday at a St Louis Community College campus that he was stopped twice on a New Jersey highway and accused of speeding.

He said police searched his car, going through the trunk and looking under the seats.

"I remember how humiliating that was and how angry I was and the impact it had on me," he said.

© Copyright Original Source

Why was that necessary? He's the top law enforcement officer in the US, and had to inject that into an already very tense situation.

[robrecht]

Understood -- Holder, in my opinion, went overboard in attempting to "identify" with the blacks, even pointing out that HE was black, and didn't trust the police.

Source: TheGuardian

The Attorney General told community leaders on Wednesday at a St Louis Community College campus that he was stopped twice on a New Jersey highway and accused of speeding.

He said police searched his car, going through the trunk and looking under the seats.

"I remember how humiliating that was and how angry I was and the impact it had on me," he said.

© Copyright Original Source

Why was that necessary? He's the top law enforcement officer in the US, and had to inject that into an already very tense situation.

I actually think this can be very helpful. Despite identifying with his audience's fear and mistrust, he nonetheless became the top law-enforcement official in the whole country. There are some good, historical reason for the fear and mistrust that the black community feels toward law-enforcement in general. Over playing this dimension is what I see 'leaders' like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton doing, but I don't get that sense from Holder. I don't have much familiarity with Holder's career, but I don't get that vibe from him.

[fm93]

And square_peg...not that his will impact your thinking (since you've clearly already made up your mind), but have you ever heard of the 21-feet rule? I know you're saying 35 feet, but it's still applicable because it gives perspective about distances and reaction times. Basically, at 21 feet an attacker can sprint and make physical contact with a defender in about the same time it takes to draw a holstered pistol, aim, and fire. In our personal experiments, the attacker usually won with the defender not even getting a shot off. 35 feet is a greater distance, but even if that was the actual distance it should give you some concept of the reaction time involved -- and why Officer Wilson didn't wait till Brown was closer to shoot.

You accuse me of having "already made up my mind," while lecturing me and taking for granted the claim that Brown was actually charging towards the officer--a claim for which we currently have no conclusive evidence.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop with the personal attacks.

Absolutely.

Alright then. It's just that when I think of assault, the images that immediately come to mind are those of violent punches and slaps and kicks. Shoves seem much less severe.

Wow--- yeah, OTHER teenagers steel stuff, then when they see a cop, instead of walking the OTHER way, they APPROACH him.

"Wait for the facts."--Cow Poke, all throughout this thread

[Cow Poke]

Alright then. It's just that when I think of assault, the images that immediately come to mind are those of violent punches and slaps and kicks.

There are degrees of assault.. what you're referencing would, in most jurisdictions, be referred to as aggravated assault.

Shoves seem much less severe.

Well, yeah, offenses against individuals come in "degrees". (Seriously, are you REALLY this ignorant of principles of law, or are you just playing games?)

"Wait for the facts."--Cow Poke, all throughout this thread

You dispute that it's a FACT that Brown approached Wilson?

[robrecht]

You accuse me of having "already made up my mind," while lecturing me and taking for granted the claim that Brown was actually charging towards the officer--a claim for which we currently have no conclusive evidence.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop with the personal attacks.

It is a negative comment about you personally, but I would not characterize it as 'personal attacks'. Just my unsolicited two cents. I like it when people get along.

[rogue06]

CNN is reporting that a source is saying that Wilson didn't suffer from a fractured eye socket but instead had a swollen jaw.

[Cow Poke]

CNN is reporting that a source is saying that Wilson didn't suffer from a fractured eye socket but instead had a swollen jaw.

Uhoh

[Darth Executor]

This is like Twilight for heterosexuals. I'm on Team Wilson.

[Sparko]

I'm beginning to think you're just being a bozo. Yes, it is CRUCIALLY important, because it's part of the information the officer considers when he cites a reasonable fear of death.... being punched in the face by somebody that big, being ACCOSTED by somebody that big, having somebody that big grab your duty weapon... it is a CRUCIAL piece of information.

My brother, a cop, was called to a domestic dispute and tried to break it up peacefully. The guy was large, like Brown. My brother isn't small either. My brother ended up with a shattered jaw and had to have part of it replaced with titanium. The guy was unarmed.