Derail thread: Is repentance necessary for salvation?

[foudroyant]

You base this whole argument on one solitary text found only in the letter to the Roman church?

". . . That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. . . ."

When the whole of the new covenant teaches that salvation is through faith alone.

It is by faith alone. That is faith apart from human works. But this faith is a synecdoche which encompasses repentance and confession.
In tems of one passage I would ask how many times does it take for God to declare something to be true?
Answer: Once
In fact, it is more than once we are taught confession of Christ results in salvation.
Acts 9:14
Acts 9:21
Acts 22:16
Romans 10:9-14
1 Corinthians 1:2

[Truthseeker]

It is by faith alone. That is faith apart from human works. But this faith is a synecdoche which encompasses repentance and confession.
In tems of one passage I would ask how many times does it take for God to declare something to be true?
Answer: Once
In fact, it is more than once we are taught confession of Christ results in salvation.
Acts 9:14
Acts 9:21
Acts 22:16
Romans 10:9-14
1 Corinthians 1:2

Acts 9:14 is wrong. You must have meant some other verse.

[foudroyant]

Acts 9:14, like the others teaches, that Christ's name was called on by those who are Christians.

[tabibito]

Assuming that the reference to praising God in tongues refers to a confession of Jesus, how could they even start talking in tongues if they hadn't already gotten saved?

Is a person saved because he has the Holy Spirit? Do you have a reference that receiving the Holy Spirit is the only thing needed for salvation?
alternatively
Does having the Holy Spirit, of and by itself mean that a person is saved? What conditions must be in place before a person can receive the Holy Spirit?

[foudroyant]

1. If one has the Holy Spirit they are saved (Romans 8:9; 1 John 3:24; 4:13).
2. The Holy Spirit is received when one believes (Acts 19:2; Ephesians 1:13).
3. Belief/Faith encompasses repentance and confession (Acts 17:30; 20:21; Romans 10:9-14; 2 Peter 3:9 etc).

[tabibito]

the whole of the new covenant teaches that salvation is through faith alone.

Speaking of things being added to the texts - where do you find "alone" written anywhere?

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Where is faith "alone" stated here?

Mar 13:13 “And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you
Where is faith even mentioned here?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Faith is only a secondary factor in salvation according to this - the primary factor is grace
This doesn't even say "saved by faith" Faith is no more than a conduit.

2 Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit
"mercy" isn't quite a synonym for "grace" but the difference isn't strong enough to warrant a separation for ordinary purposes

A stronger case can be made for saved by grace alone than can be made for saved by faith alone - but "alone" is still an unwarranted interpolation.

[tabibito]

tabibito, this is what I saw. Clicking on that turns up an error message. Probably a copyright issue.

There's no possibility of a copyright issue: I'll try it again.

1 Peter 3 - 18B to 22.jpg

[tabibito]

1. If one has the Holy Spirit they are saved (Romans 8:9; 1 John 3:24; 4:13).

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Nice: if the Spirit IS in you, he WILL give you life. present condition: The Spirit dwells in the person FUTURE result - He will give life.


1Jo 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
He abides in the person who keeps his commandments, and the person who keeps the commandments abides in him. What does it say about the person who doesn't keep the commandments?

2. The Holy Spirit is received when one believes (Acts 19:2; Ephesians 1:13).

Acts 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
?? This group believed, and they had only received John's baptism. They did not receive the Holy Spirit ... they had never even heard of the Holy Spirit being given.
They were then baptised in the name of Jesus, and received the Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands on them.
Compare this with a different group Acts 8:15-16 who had been baptised in the name of Christ and still did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John laid hands on them some time later. Does the Bible declare that people who have been baptised into Christ are saved? Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Can a person abide in Christ without receiving the Holy Spirit? What say we take all of the relevant scriptures into account before we decide what is what.



Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
Is 1 John 4:12 irrelevant to verse 13?
1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
What signifies our abiding in him and he in us? The presence of the Holy Spirit? or love being perfected?

3. Belief/Faith encompasses repentance and confession (Acts 17:30; 20:21; Romans 10:9-14; 2 Peter 3:9 etc).

and obedience and ...

[foudroyant]

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Nice: if the Spirit IS in you, he WILL give you life. present condition: The Spirit dwells in the person FUTURE result - He will give life.


1Jo 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
He abides in the person who keeps his commandments, and the person who keeps the commandments abides in him. What does it say about the person who doesn't keep the commandments?


Acts 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
?? This group believed, and they had only received John's baptism. They did not receive the Holy Spirit ... they had never even heard of the Holy Spirit being given.
They were then baptised in the name of Jesus, and received the Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands on them.
Compare this with a different group Acts 8:15-16 who had been baptised in the name of Christ and still did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John laid hands on them some time later. Does the Bible declare that people who have been baptised into Christ are saved? Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Can a person abide in Christ without receiving the Holy Spirit? What say we take all of the relevant scriptures into account before we decide what is what.



Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
Is 1 John 4:12 irrelevant to verse 13?
1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
What signifies our abiding in him and he in us? The presence of the Holy Spirit? or love being perfected?

and obedience and ...

Romans 8:9 proves that if one has the Spirit that person is saved.
1 John 3:24 - one has the ability to keep the New Covenant commandments because that person has the Spirit.

Acts 19:2 - this section proves these people were not yet saved since they did not have the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 - same thing in that the Spirit is given when one believes.

1 John 4:12-13 - genuine Christina love is possible because they have the Spirit (i.e., the are Christians).

To believe is to obey:
1. Acts 6:7; Romans 10:16; 1 Peter 2:6-8; Hebrews 4:3, 6
2. NIDNTT: Besides those who obey the message of faith (Acts 6:7) there are those who refuse to obey the gospel (Rom. 10:16; 2 Thess. 1:8). Beneath all this lies the understanding of faith as an act of obedience (2:179, Hear, W. Mundle)
3. TDNT: Acts knows a reward in this life for obedience to God. He who obeys God receives as a reward, not earthly goods, but the one and only gift of the last time by which early Christianity differentiates itself from Judaism (Ac. 1:5; 2:1ff.; 8:15; 15:8: 19:1-6), namely, the Spirit of God (5:32; 10:4ff., 44) (4:725, misthos, Preisker).

[tabibito]

Acts 19:2 - this section proves these people were not yet saved since they did not have the Holy Spirit.

But - does the Bible not say that that people who are in Christ are saved? Does the Bible not say that a person, being baptised into Christ, is saved? Do we assume that only one is necessary? Or, do the passages only cite "baptised into the Holy Spirit" (not that any do, in so many words) and "baptised into Christ" as appropriate to the topic at hand, and leave the reader to rightly divide the scriptures?


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




And again - what does baptism into Christ achieve?

[foudroyant]

A person "in Christ" is saved and this is done by being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...he-Holy-Spirit

[tabibito]

So you're saying that baptism in water is not baptism into Christ?
What were the people baptised by Philip actually baptised with then? and he had baptised them into Christ, but not into the Holy Spirit - what is baptism into Christ?
Again, what does baptism into Christ achieve?

1. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs only one time when a person is placed into the body of Christ (The Church). If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then that person is not a Christian.

The same claim can be made with regard to baptism into Christ. Regardless of whether a person has been baptised into the Holy Spirit, he is not a Christian until he has been baptised into Christ. What is baptism into Christ? It isn't baptism into the Holy Spirit, it doesn't have the same result. What does baptism into Christ achieve?

[foudroyant]

Spirit baptism puts us into Christ. Water baptism is the picture.

Baptism into Christ places a person into the body pf Christ.

[tabibito]

Spirit baptism puts us into Christ. Water baptism is the picture.

Baptism into Christ places a person into the body of Christ.

Antitype water baptism now saves you. Rewriting 1 Peter 3:21 to say anything else is mere scripture wresting.
You can check post 112, or any other translation of the passage that suits you. I don't think even the most biased of translations actually mess with the record - though some do say that saving of people on the ark is a picture of the baptism that now saves you.
Baptism into Christ achieves what? You've only given part of the answer (and not the most significant part at that) - and I already posted the relevant scripture:

[tabibito]

1/ 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism into Christ places a person into the body pf Christ.

We are baptised into one body by the Spirit according to 1 Corinthians 12:13 - How is it that you can say we are baptised into one body through baptism into Christ?
Not that I am arguing against the idea, just that there seems to be something missing in your answer.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

But then - this doesn't say that baptism into Christ is baptism into the body of Christ - it says that the individual has put on Christ.
This yet remains only part of the answer:


Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
What does baptism into Christ achieve?
Act 22:16 ‘And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
What does baptism into Christ achieve?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? continuing to verse 7
What does baptism into Christ achieve?