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This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
    REFUTE MY THESIS OR REMAIN QUIET:

    Jorge
    Provide positive supporting evidence for your YEC assertions or shut your big mouth.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jorge View Post
      REFUTE MY THESIS OR REMAIN QUIET:

      If you and others here would simply THINK about what I've been posting here for over a decade - that there are two 'evolutions', one science and the other part of a religious metaphysic ... that these two are intermixed and sold as a single "scientific" theory - then you'd be able to connect the dots and everything would start making sense.

      Instead you refuse to see or accept this reality. I cannot stop you from doing that.

      No, the science (of evolution) is not wrong ... allele frequencies in populations do indeed change over time and these changes are manifested in physical characteristics of the individuals within that population. I have never claimed otherwise.

      But the ideology/metaphysic/paradigm of Evolution - THAT isn't science.

      And the intermixing of evolution with Evolution - packaged as a single "scientific" theory - THAT gets used to explain and justify everything from soup to nuts. THAT is used (past, present and future) to "scientifically" justify wars, euthanasia, abortion, genocide, etc.

      Anyone not agreeing with that can only be one of two things: (1) ignorant (i.e., unaware of the facts) or, (2) dishonest (i.e., (s)he is aware of these facts but does not accept them for self-serving, ulterior motives).


      Jorge
      Your thesis was refuted many times over in this thread. Misapplication of a scientific principle does not negate that scientific principle.

      And many analogies were given you. Newton mechanics, atomic theory, nuclear theory...

      And examples from a cultural/theological/hermeneutic view were given. The Hamite curse, God-ordered slaughter in the OT... Also consider the pain, oppression, bloodshed, arrogance, etc. created by the Divine Right of Kings.

      Your style is like a no-talent boxer who can take a lot of really good punches. His strategy is to keep standing and hope the other guys falls over from sheer exhaustion.

      K54

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        It is not a matter if disagreement.
        ???

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by phank View Post
          OK, let's see if I got this right:

          1) The Theory of Evolution isn't really a biological theory, despite the confusion of every evolutionary biologist in the world. It's really a political theory used to support practices I dislike.

          2) This unique (and religiously inspired) description of Evolution gets mixed in with "real" evolution, which IS biology, so I'm not denying evolution happens, quite. However,

          3) We simply won't address the cumulative effects of changing alleles and allele distributions over long periods of time, because that inevitably leads to theologically unacceptable conclusions, and because those conclusions are based on too many millions of consistent observations. So we'll deny that even TIME existed!

          4) If anyone doesn't agree with ME, they must be either stupid or ignorant or dishonest. The alternative is that I might be wrong, and God tells me I am never wrong.
          Excellent summary.

          The micro/macro thread demonstrated their inability to deal with what Jorge refers to as the two "Es".

          Other threads demonstrated their inability to deal with the specific mapping of the Genesis stories to physical reality.

          And in every thread in which they participate they indicate their Rock of Gibraltar steadfastness in not budging from a position they KNOW is correct in the face of a barrage of contrary evidence.

          "They" being the presuppositionalist YEC/anti-evolutionist.

          K54

          P.S. And they project like Mercator.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
            Your thesis was refuted many times over in this thread. Misapplication of a scientific principle does not negate that scientific principle.

            And many analogies were given you. Newton mechanics, atomic theory, nuclear theory...

            And examples from a cultural/theological/hermeneutic view were given. The Hamite curse, God-ordered slaughter in the OT... Also consider the pain, oppression, bloodshed, arrogance, etc. created by the Divine Right of Kings.

            Your style is like a no-talent boxer who can take a lot of really good punches. His strategy is to keep standing and hope the other guys falls over from sheer exhaustion.

            K54
            Isn't there are a difference though? I mean the theories of Newton and Einstein have been used to create weapons. But that is not what Jorge and others are saying about evolution. In that case it is supposed to be the implications of the theory that lead to certain views about the value of human life etc and via those views to horrible acts. I don't see that anyone has done that to the theories of Newton and/or Einstein. Have they?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
              Isn't there are a difference though? I mean the theories of Newton and Einstein have been used to create weapons. But that is not what Jorge and others are saying about evolution. In that case it is supposed to be the implications of the theory that lead to certain views about the value of human life etc and via those views to horrible acts. I don't see that anyone has done that to the theories of Newton and/or Einstein. Have they?
              Any scientific theory can lead to technology that can used for evil. Evolution can be misapplied to social theory.

              Big deal. In any case, the putative social application of a scientific theory DOES NOT NEGATE THE SCIENCE.

              Is it the thesis of philosophical anti-evolutionists that the science should be discarded since the knowledge COULD BE misapplied socially?

              Ridiculous.

              Of course what I said in an earlier post holds. They reject "Evolution" (to use the Jorgian notation) as science (by axiom), so are free to use the putative social applications to bash it.

              K54

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                Any scientific theory can lead to technology that can used for evil. Evolution can be misapplied to social theory.
                Yup. The Nazis utilized Germ Theory for a justification for the Holocaust. Gravitational theory has been employed in ballistics allowing artillery and the like to be more accurate and devastating.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by phank View Post
                  OK, let's see if I got this right:
                  From what you wrote below, you most definitely do NOT have it right.

                  1) The Theory of Evolution isn't really a biological theory, despite the confusion of every evolutionary biologist in the world. It's really a political theory used to support practices I dislike.
                  First, which 'evolution' are you speaking of - evolution or Evolution?
                  Second, NO, it is not "a political theory used to support practices".
                  Where you come up with that stuff only your hairdresser knows for sure.

                  2) This unique (and religiously inspired) description of Evolution gets mixed in with "real" evolution, which IS biology, so I'm not denying evolution happens, quite. However,
                  No, besides dripping with sarcasm the above is worded quite poorly.
                  Re-read what I've written but this time go much slower.


                  3) We simply won't address the cumulative effects of changing alleles and allele distributions over long periods of time, because that inevitably leads to theologically unacceptable conclusions, and because those conclusions are based on too many millions of consistent observations. So we'll deny that even TIME existed!
                  As Pauli would have said, "Not even wrong!"


                  4) If anyone doesn't agree with ME, they must be either stupid or ignorant or dishonest. The alternative is that I might be wrong, and God tells me I am never wrong.
                  Now you've really gone off the deep end - which is to be expected when specimens like yourself find themselves unable to refute a position that makes them look stupid. So they resort to name-calling, distortions, misrepresentations, intellectual dishonesty and, of course, an all-time favorite: ad hominem.

                  I expected no less from Phankestein. My only surprise is that it took as long as it did.

                  Jorge

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                    Provide positive supporting evidence for your YEC assertions or shut your big mouth.
                    Hadn't I booted you off .......... oops, wait... my bad!

                    Beagle Boy deserves to be booted off so often that the
                    threads merge into one - a sort of Vulcan Mind Meld.

                    Jorge

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                      Your thesis was refuted many times over in this thread. Misapplication of a scientific principle does not negate that scientific principle.

                      And many analogies were given you. Newton mechanics, atomic theory, nuclear theory...

                      And examples from a cultural/theological/hermeneutic view were given. The Hamite curse, God-ordered slaughter in the OT... Also consider the pain, oppression, bloodshed, arrogance, etc. created by the Divine Right of Kings.

                      Your style is like a no-talent boxer who can take a lot of really good punches. His strategy is to keep standing and hope the other guys falls over from sheer exhaustion.

                      K54
                      Interesting ... this must be a new form - perhaps the New Age Version - of debate in which the person (i.e., you) merely claims to have refuted something and, PRESTO!, it becomes "true". Yeah, right ... maybe where Dorothy was transported to.

                      Even more impressive is that to support their "refutation" they (you) employ evidence and analogies that are irrational, non sequitur, misrepresentations, illogical and so on. My recent favorite remains the "Spartans" by R06 - I'm still reeling over that one.

                      No, Santa Klaus, you have NOT "refuted" anything. Perhaps in your warped, deluded mind you have, but in the real world you haven't - you're not even close. You're going to have to eat your Wheaties and veggies and then try again.

                      Jorge

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                        Isn't there are a difference though? I mean the theories of Newton and Einstein have been used to create weapons. But that is not what Jorge and others are saying about evolution. In that case it is supposed to be the implications of the theory that lead to certain views about the value of human life etc and via those views to horrible acts. I don't see that anyone has done that to the theories of Newton and/or Einstein. Have they?
                        Hallelujah!!! It appears that there is at least someone here (outside of a small group) that is 'getting' it. F=ma, as an example, may be applied to technology that leads to weapons that kill people. A rifle, employing Newtonian physics, may be used to defend a person from a criminal or from a bear or to hunt for food ... the same rifle may be used to commit a criminal act such as murder. That's NOT what I've been talking about.

                        What I have been talking about is that the DIRECT implications of the fundamental Evolutionary Principle of "survival of the fittest" may be, has been and will continue to be used as "scientific" justification for war, euthanasia, abortions, genocide, homosexual practices, stealing, and essentially anything. The direct implication of F=ma, on the other hand, is nothing more than a physical description.

                        In order to protect their Sacred Cow, the Evo-Faithful merely create red herrings and straw men until people give up out of exasperation.

                        Jorge

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Jorge, I would agree that a materialistic, naturalistic, atheistic worldview has some horrible consequences when consistently reasoned through. But I don't see how evolution in itself can be said to lead to those conclusions. Theistic Evolutionism need not stop at the survival of the fittest. The theistic part of Theistic Evolutionism makes all the difference in the world.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            From what you wrote below, you most definitely do NOT have it right.



                            First, which 'evolution' are you speaking of - evolution or Evolution?
                            Second, NO, it is not "a political theory used to support practices".
                            Where you come up with that stuff only your hairdresser knows for sure.



                            No, besides dripping with sarcasm the above is worded quite poorly.
                            Re-read what I've written but this time go much slower.




                            As Pauli would have said, "Not even wrong!"




                            Now you've really gone off the deep end - which is to be expected when specimens like yourself find themselves unable to refute a position that makes them look stupid. So they resort to name-calling, distortions, misrepresentations, intellectual dishonesty and, of course, an all-time favorite: ad hominem.

                            I expected no less from Phankestein. My only surprise is that it took as long as it did.

                            Jorge
                            Phank is right on the money.

                            That fact that you deny that and deny that in such a strident and snarky manner speaks volumes of you as a presuppositionalist apologist.

                            Oh, and excellent example of the projection fallacy as well!

                            K54

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                              Jorge, I would agree that a materialistic, naturalistic, atheistic worldview has some horrible consequences when consistently reasoned through. But I don't see how evolution in itself can be said to lead to those conclusions. Theistic Evolutionism need not stop at the survival of the fittest. The theistic part of Theistic Evolutionism makes all the difference in the world.
                              I can never understand this claim. Why must a materialistic worldview lead to worse consequences than a worldview based on imaginary all-powerful entities who never do anything?

                              In any case, evolutionary theory is nothing more than a set of proposed mechanisms for biological changes in populations, which are easily observed and for which the cumulative evidence is incontrovertible. If we make up a "magical mechanism" to superimpose onto those proposed, which adds no explanatory power whatsoever, how does that help the theory?

                              What Jorge is doing is fabricating a term he calls "Evolution" which encompasses everything his narrow theology can't deal with, and then blaming it for everything he dislikes.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                                Hallelujah!!! It appears that there is at least someone here (outside of a small group) that is 'getting' it. F=ma, as an example, may be applied to technology that leads to weapons that kill people. A rifle, employing Newtonian physics, may be used to defend a person from a criminal or from a bear or to hunt for food ... the same rifle may be used to commit a criminal act such as murder. That's NOT what I've been talking about.

                                What I have been talking about is that the DIRECT implications of the fundamental Evolutionary Principle of "survival of the fittest" may be, has been and will continue to be used as "scientific" justification for war, euthanasia, abortions, genocide, homosexual practices, stealing, and essentially anything. The direct implication of F=ma, on the other hand, is nothing more than a physical description.

                                In order to protect their Sacred Cow, the Evo-Faithful merely create red herrings and straw men until people give up out of exasperation.

                                Jorge
                                Is this best you got? Repeating mendacious nonsense?

                                Whatever people putatively derive from the theory of evolution to apply to cultural practice is irrelevant to the validity of the scientific theory.

                                Pure and simple. And I will keep posting this refutation as long as you flood the thread(s) with your intellectual dishonesty.

                                Please let this sink into your head:

                                EVEN IF YOU THINK THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS WRONG SCIENTIFICALLY, ITS PUTATIVE APPLICATION TO CULTURAL ISSUES IS NOT EVIDENCE AGAINST IT AS SCIENCE!!!

                                Google "Category Error"...

                                Unbelievable...

                                K54

                                Comment

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