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  • #16
    Where in the civil rights act under "public accommodation" (Title II) does it protect sexual orientation?

    "All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
    http://users.wfu.edu/zulick/341/civilrightsact1964.html

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Where in the civil rights act under "public accommodation" (Title II) does it protect sexual orientation?

      "All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
      http://users.wfu.edu/zulick/341/civilrightsact1964.html
      Exactly...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Prove that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic.
        Try to become gay. That is, try to be attracted only to men and not to women.

        Any luck yet? Of course not. You can't do it. Plenty of people have tried to change their orientation via conversion therapy, but many of the people in reported success stories later are caught frequenting gay bars or admitting that they were only being abstinent and didn't actually have a different orientation, or have married but admit that they still experience feelings of attraction towards people of the same sex. Alan Chambers, the president of the now-defunct Exodus organization (the most [in]famous conversion therapy group), admitted last year that in 99% of cases it doesn't work and apologized for causing harm to participants, and the organization consequently ceased activities (which is why it's now defunct).

        Again, I don't know for sure that there haven't been a few genuine instances of change, but it's clear that the vast majority of people are unable to do so. Hence, it's considered an immutable characteristic.


        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Where in the civil rights act under "public accommodation" (Title II) does it protect sexual orientation?
        It doesn't. I meant that in the hypothetical example of a black couple being discriminated against by farmers, the CRA would've been violated. You're correct that sexual orientation isn't protected like that at the federal level, but in the state of New York, it is indeed a protected characteristic.
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
          Try to become gay. That is, try to be attracted only to men and not to women.

          Any luck yet? Of course not. You can't do it. Plenty of people have tried to change their orientation via conversion therapy, but many of the people in reported success stories later are caught frequenting gay bars or admitting that they were only being abstinent and didn't actually have a different orientation, or have married but admit that they still experience feelings of attraction towards people of the same sex. Alan Chambers, the president of the now-defunct Exodus organization (the most [in]famous conversion therapy group), admitted last year that in 99% of cases it doesn't work and apologized for causing harm to participants, and the organization consequently ceased activities (which is why it's now defunct).

          Again, I don't know for sure that there haven't been a few genuine instances of change, but it's clear that the vast majority of people are unable to do so. Hence, it's considered an immutable characteristic.



          It doesn't. I meant that in the hypothetical example of a black couple being discriminated against by farmers, the CRA would've been violated. You're correct that sexual orientation isn't protected like that at the federal level, but in the state of New York, it is indeed a protected characteristic.
          So if something is an immutable characteristic, even a behavior, then it should be protected by the civil rights act? Do you have any legal evidence of that? Or is it wishful thinking on your part?

          What about Pedophilia? From what I understand, it is an immutable characteristic.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            Methinks it would behoove all to ignore square_peg since he clearly does not understand what is actually happening. He is one of the cowardly bullies referred to in the OP.
            or one of thier useful idiots who will defend them in their bullying.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
              Try to become gay. That is, try to be attracted only to men and not to women.
              Let's start here. I mentioned this in the past. I grew up with two kids - Ronny and Donny (Donny has since passed, AIDS). They were fairly normal boys who came out in the mid seventies. Come to find out both boys were molested by older male family members from an early age (7 or 8) until their mid teens. Both grew up to be exclusively gay men. So was that behavior learned or were they genetically disposed? I seriously doubt that they would have been gay without those early experiences, or that it was an immutable characteristic. And if you trust Kinsey's work, human sexuality is much more mutable, most people will fall in the bi-sexual range. Of course even if it is difficult to resist that doesn't make it any less immoral.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                So if something is an immutable characteristic, even a behavior, then it should be protected by the civil rights act? Do you have any legal evidence of that? Or is it wishful thinking on your part?
                This is utterly irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that sexual orientation is actually, really, truly protected by state law in New York. Thus, the farmers (who live in New York) were violating the couple's legal rights by discriminating against them on the basis of sexual orientation.

                What about Pedophilia? From what I understand, it is an immutable characteristic.
                I believe you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate (in this case meaning "deny participation to someone") against a person for merely having a pedophilic orientation. You CAN and ABSOLUTELY SHOULD discriminate against a person if he/she ACTS on that pedophilic orientation.

                But in the case being discussed in this thread, the issue isn't behavior, but orientation. The farmers were essentially saying "We'll let people who happen to be straight rent our facilities for a wedding if they so choose, but we won't let people who happen to be gay rent our facilities for a wedding if they so choose."
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Let's start here. I mentioned this in the past. I grew up with two kids - Ronny and Donny (Donny has since passed, AIDS). They were fairly normal boys who came out in the mid seventies. Come to find out both boys were molested by older male family members from an early age (7 or 8) until their mid teens. Both grew up to be exclusively gay men. So was that behavior learned or were they genetically disposed? I seriously doubt that they would have been gay without those early experiences, or that it was an immutable characteristic.
                  Actually, psychological studies do not support the idea that a homosexual orientation can become acquired via trauma like molestation. So go ahead and "seriously doubt" all you want, but do keep in mind that the research doesn't support your idea. And again, you're making that error: orientation is not the same thing as behavior. You mean "was that orientation learned." Even if homosexual orientations did come about via molestation, it's irrelevant to what the data shows. No matter how the orientation came about, it is unchangeable for the vast majority of people.
                  Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                  I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    From the article:
                    The decision said Liberty Ridge qualifies as a public accommodation because it regularly collects fees for space, facilities, services and meals, so it cannot be considered “distinctly private.”

                    You don't have to agree with that ruling, but for now it is what it is.
                    I'm still not seeing anything about government ownership.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Meta Knight View Post
                      I'm still not seeing anything about government ownership.
                      It's not owned by the government, but it still qualifies as public.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        By now, sensible people would have learnt to refuse to rent their facilities out without stating a reason.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          This is utterly irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that sexual orientation is actually, really, truly protected by state law in New York. Thus, the farmers (who live in New York) were violating the couple's legal rights by discriminating against them on the basis of sexual orientation.


                          I believe you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate (in this case meaning "deny participation to someone") against a person for merely having a pedophilic orientation. You CAN and ABSOLUTELY SHOULD discriminate against a person if he/she ACTS on that pedophilic orientation.

                          But in the case being discussed in this thread, the issue isn't behavior, but orientation. The farmers were essentially saying "We'll let people who happen to be straight rent our facilities for a wedding if they so choose, but we won't let people who happen to be gay rent our facilities for a wedding if they so choose."
                          I am pretty sure they would have no problem renting their location out to homosexual people marrying someone of the opposite sex. So it is indeed the behavior and not the orientation that matters.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            Actually, psychological studies do not support the idea that a homosexual orientation can become acquired via trauma like molestation. So go ahead and "seriously doubt" all you want, but do keep in mind that the research doesn't support your idea. And again, you're making that error: orientation is not the same thing as behavior. You mean "was that orientation learned." Even if homosexual orientations did come about via molestation, it's irrelevant to what the data shows. No matter how the orientation came about, it is unchangeable for the vast majority of people.
                            Nonsense, if you took the genetic material that is me and put me through the same experience as Ron and Don, there is a good chance that I would be gay today. And the fact is, even though it may be difficult to change or resist that does not however mean that it is an immutable characteristic like skin color.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              It's not owned by the government, but it still qualifies as public.
                              No, it doesn't. If it isn't owned by the government, it's by definition a private business. One that ought to possess the traditional right to refuse service to anyone.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                                I am pretty sure they would have no problem renting their location out to homosexual people marrying someone of the opposite sex. So it is indeed the behavior and not the orientation that matters.
                                Then the behavior in this case would be choosing to marry other gay people. But in New York, marriage is legal to people of all orientations, so to refuse to let a gay couple hold a wedding on the facilities while letting straight couples do so would still constitute discrimination on the basis of orientation.

                                Not to mention, essentially saying "We'll let gay people marry and hold weddings here as long as they marry straight people" would be bullying.


                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Nonsense, if you took the genetic material that is me and put me through the same experience as Ron and Don, there is a good chance that I would be gay today.
                                You have no actual evidence to support this claim. Meanwhile, plenty of other people were molested as children and didn't turn out gay.

                                And the fact is, even though it may be difficult to change or resist that does not however mean that it is an immutable characteristic like skin color.
                                If the vast majority of people cannot change their orientation, then their orientation is immutable. That's what immutable means--unable to change.
                                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                                Comment

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