Broken link in chain of logic

[steamer]

The age of 4.54 billion years found for the Solar System and Earth is consistent with current calculations of 11 to 13 billion years for the age of the Milky Way Galaxy (based on the stage of evolution of globular cluster stars) and the age of 10 to 15 billion years for the age of the Universe (based on the recession of distant galaxies).
from: http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

The Genesis version of creation does not show any actual understanding of how the universe was created. I don't see any connection between the creator of the universe and the bible. How does one conclude that the god of the bible is the creator when the link between them is so obviously wrong?

If the bible began with the following lines it certainly would be a more compelling connection:

In the beginning God created the universe, several billions of years later he created the galaxy, several billions of years later he created the sun and the earth.

And the earth was void of life

And God set the earth to rotate about it's own axis and to revolve around the sun.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Scripture Verse:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning God created the universe, several billions of years later he created the galaxy, several billions of years later he created the sun and the earth.

Scripture Verse:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And the earth was void of life

Scripture Verse:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

This is redundant, there were already millions of lights when the universe was created. Delete.

Scripture Verse:

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Darkness is merely the absence of light, no division is required - Should read.

And God set the earth to rotate about it's own axis.

Scripture Verse:

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Use as is

[Duder]

The Genesis version of creation does not show any actual understanding of how the universe was created. I don't see any connection between the creator of the universe and the bible. How does one conclude that the god of the bible is the creator when the link between them is so obviously wrong?

I don't think attacking Genesis in this way is particularly effective.

The book of Genesis evolved from three older literary sourses and from oral traditions. The final redactor's purpose is to introduce God as the one who called the world into being and to call attention to the outworking of God's design in his relationship with humans.

In discussing Genesis as if it were a science or history textbook, you're setting up a strawman. As regards the age of the cosmos and of the earth, Genesis gives no information at all. Clearly, the "days" of creation are literary devices that serve as paragraph breaks, seperating God's creative work into digestible units. Moreover, one must not make the mistake of taking the literary garb that describes the primeval work of God in a naively literal way. It is poetical, metaphorical and mythological. It was written in a way that was intelligible to the ancient Israelites who were to preserve the work.

Imagine that the book were what you demand of it - a straightforward exposition of modern cosmology. It starts with a mathematical description of a hypothetical naked singularity. From there, it discusses the Planck time where the symmetry broke and time and space became distinguishable. Then we have the inflationary epock, where the "false vacuum" broke down and the universe expanded faster than the speed of light. Several hundred thousand years after that, we have photon decoupling where the universe is stretched out enough to allow light to travel from place to place (let there be light!). Hundreds of millions of years thence, we begin to see the first proto-galaxies - areas of higher density that resulted from quantum fluctuations the pre-Planck universe. . . . and so on.

All of this would seem like nothing more than a psychedelic vision to ancient people, and they would not have derived much meaning from it. It would not have survived as a literary work because it wouldn't have conveyed anything meaningful to the people who heard it.

Come on, Steamer. You have not even scratched the surface in your attempt to attack the Bible. You need to dig down and find the red meat, dude! There are profound emotional, psychological and moral problems embedded deeply in the Bible's substratum - and discussing these will be far more fruitful than your surface attack.

[steamer]

Come on, Steamer. You have not even scratched the surface in your attempt to attack the Bible. You need to dig down and fid the red meat, dude! There are profound emotional, psychological and moral problems embedded deeply in the Bible's substratum - and discussing these will be far more fruitful than your surface attack.

Duder,

It's not a strawman, it's a question. I'm not building a case to attack anything at the moment. I merely want to know how people got from point A to point B in their thinking.

The universe exists
God made it
God is in the bible

I can accept the possibility that god made the universe. I don't understand exactly how this leads so many people directly to the bible when the bible doesn't match anything we know about the creation. Also, my revision would not have been an out of reach as a concept to ancient hebrews.

[Nicholas]

I believe I found humorously revised Genesis story, this is how it really happens. Here's the link of it you want the source: http://church.freethought.org/9701.creation.html


Chapter 1
1. In the beginning God created Dates.
2. And the date was Monday, July 4, 4004 BC.
3. And God said, let there be light; and there was light. And when there was Light, God saw the Date, that it was Monday, and he got down to work; for verily, he had a Big Job to do.
4. And God made pottery shards and Silurian mollusks and pre-Cambrian limestone strata; and flints and Jurassic Mastodon tusks and Picanthopus erectus skulls and Cretaceous placentals made he; and those cave paintings at Lasceaux. And that was that, for the first Work Day.
5. And God saw that he had made many wondrous things, but that he had not wherein to put it all. And God said, Let the heavens be divided from the earth; and let us bury all of these Things which we have made in the earth; but not too deep.
6. And God buried all the Things which he had made, and that was that.
7. And the morning and the evening and the overtime were Tuesday.
8. And God said, Let there be water; and let the dry land appear; and that was that.
9. And God called the dry land Real Estate; and the water called he the Sea. And in the land and beneath it put he crude oil, grades one through six; and natural gas put he thereunder, and prehistoric carboniferous forests yielding anthracite and other ligneous matter; and all these called he Resources; and he made them Abundant.
10. And likewise all that was in the sea, even unto two hundred miles from the dry land, called he resources; all that was therein, like manganese nodules, for instance.
11. And the morning unto the evening had been a long day; which he called Wednesday.
12. And God said, Let the earth bring forth abundantly every moving creature I can think of, with or without backbones, with or without wings or feet, or fins or claws, vestigial limbs and all, right now; and let each one be of a separate species. For lo, I can make whatsoever I like, whensoever I like.
13. And the earth brought forth abundantly all creatures, great and small, with and without backbones, with and without wings and feet and fins and claws, vestigial limbs and all, from bugs to brontosauruses.
14. But God blessed them all, saying, Be fruitful and multiply and Evolve Not.
15. And God looked upon the species he hath made, and saw that the earth was exceedingly crowded, and he said unto them, Let each species compete for what it needed; for Healthy Competition is My Law. And the species competeth amongst themselves, the cattle and the creeping things; and some madeth it and some didn't; and the dogs ate the dinosaurs and God was pleased.
16. And God took the bones from the dinosaurs, and caused them to appear mightily old; and cast he them about the land and the sea. And he took every tiny creature that had not madeth it, and caused them to become fossils; and cast he them about likewise.
17. And just to put matters beyond the valley of the shadow of a doubt, God created carbon dating. And this is the origin of species.
18. And in the Evening of the day which was Thursday, God saw that he had put in another good day's work.
19. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, which is tall and well-formed and pale of hue; and let us also make monkeys, which resembleth us not in any wise, but are short and ill-formed and hairy. And God added, Let man have dominion over the monkeys and the fowl of the air and every species, endangered or otherwise.
20. So God created Man in His own image; tall and well-formed and pale of hue created He him, and nothing at all like the monkeys.
21. And God said, Behold I have given you every herb-bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth. But ye shall smoketh it not, lest it giveth you ideas.
22. And to every beast of the earth and every fowl of the air I have given also every green herb, and to them it shall be for meat. But they shall be for you. And the Lord God your Host suggesteth that the flesh of cattle goeth well with that of the fin and the claw; thus shall Surf be wedded unto Turf.
23. And God saw everything he had made, and he saw that it was very good; and God said, It just goes to show Me what the private sector can accomplish. With a lot of fool regulations this could have taken billions of years.
24. And the evening of the fifth day, which had been the roughest day yet, God said, Thank me it's Friday. And God made the weekend.

Chapter 2
1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all in five days, and all less than six thousand years ago; and if thou believest it not, in a sling shalt thou find thy hindermost quarters
2. Likewise God took the dust of the ground, and the slime of the Sea and the scum of the earth and formed Man therefrom; and breathed the breath of life right in his face. And he became Free to Choose.
3. And God made a Marketplace eastward of Eden, in which the man was free to play. And this was the Free Play of the Marketplace.
4. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow four trees: the Tree of Life, and the Liberty Tree, and the Pursuit of Happiness Tree, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Sex.
5. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, This is my Law, which is called the Law of Supply and Demand. Investeth thou in the trees of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, and thou shalt make for thyself a fortune. For what fruit thou eatest not, that thou mayest sell, and with the seeds thereof expand thy operations.
6. But the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Sex, thou mayest not eat; nor mayest thou invest therein, nor profit thereby nor expand its operations; for that is a mighty waste of seed.
7. And the man was exceeding glad. But he asked the LORD God: Who then shall labor in this Marketplace? For I am not management, being tall and well-formed and pale of hue?
8. And the LORD God said unto himself, Verily, this kid hath the potential which is Executive.
9. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to labor for him. And they labored for peanuts.
10. Then Adam was again exceeding glad. But he spake once more unto the LORD God, saying, Lo, I am free to play in the Marketplace of the LORD, and have cheap labor in plenty; but to whom shall I sell my surplus fruit and realize a fortune thereby?
11. And the LORD God said unto himself, Verily, this is a Live One.
12. And he caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he took from him one of his ribs, which was an spare rib.
13. And the spare rib which the LORD God had taken from the man, made he woman. And he brought her unto the man, saying:
14. This is Woman and she shall purchase your fruit; and ye shall realize a fortune thereby. For Man produceth and Woman consumeth, wherefore she shall be called the consumer.
15. And they were both decently clad, the Man and the Woman, from the neck even unto the ankles, so they were not ashamed.

[btboy500]

I can accept the possibility that god made the universe. I don't understand exactly how this leads so many people directly to the bible when the bible doesn't match anything we know about the creation. Also, my revision would not have been an out of reach as a concept to ancient hebrews.

The belief in the existence of God doesn't follow into affirming the factuality of the Bible. The latter can be done by investigation of the Bible's reliability as an historical work which includes study in regards to its sociological context.

[Nicholas]

I understood exactly what you said. And people at school say I use big words. Oh the wonders of having a large vocabulary.

[btboy500]

Come on, Steamer. You have not even scratched the surface in your attempt to attack the Bible. You need to dig down and find the red meat, dude! There are profound emotional, psychological and moral problems embedded deeply in the Bible's substratum - and discussing these will be far more fruitful than your surface attack.

The thing is, these problems you state are subjective in nature and have no bearing the truth or falsity of the Bible.

[steamer]

The thing is, these problems you state are subjective in nature and have no bearing the truth or falsity of the Bible.

This appears to be an exercise in futility then. The god I was looking for ought to know how the universe was created.

[btboy500]

This appears to be an exercise in futility then. The god I was looking for ought to know how the universe was created.

I was referring to the problems that Duder spoke of, but if God exists, posesses omniscience, and created the universe, it seems to follow that He most certainly knows how the universe was created. We however, do not and if men that were inspired by God wrote the Bible, then their fallible ignorance would undoubtedly show through. Regardless, this prescriptive of yours is still subjectively based.

[steamer]

I was referring to the problems that Duder spoke of, but if God exists, posesses omniscience, and created the universe, it seems to follow that He most certainly knows how the universe was created. We however, do not and if men that were inspired by God wrote the Bible, then their fallible ignorance would undoubtedly show through. Regardless, this prescriptive of yours is still subjectively based.

Why do you assume that these men were inspired at all? That is also subjective opinion. Why are any of the bible authors opinions any less subjective than yours or mine? How much of their fallible ignorance shows through and how can you know when and where? Why is this or any other religion not merely a subjective choice?

Nothing the bible has to say is any less subjective than what you or I say. God didn't share the correct information with the writers of Genesis or they goofed it. How do I know the bible is even describing the correct god? The more I look at this the more I believe that this is simply a tribal diety. Every thing in it could be 100% true about what they believed about their local god. Nothing it says affects how god really is or isn't. I guess I'm just getting to my wits end when multiplying each of the unlikely events by the errors and impossibilities, not to mention the necessary convolutions required to make it work. I had rather hoped by participating here to gain an understanding of the Christians that I know but that hope is fading.

[Nicholas]

How do we even know if God told them the truth, he could have lied to them, and then made up the whole idea that he doesn't lie.

[btboy500]

Why do you assume that these men were inspired at all? That is also subjective opinion. Why are any of the bible authors opinions any less subjective than yours or mine? How much of their fallible ignorance shows through and how can you know when and where? Why is this or any other religion not merely a subjective choice?

Nothing the bible has to say is any less subjective than what you or I say. God didn't share the correct information with the writers of Genesis or they goofed it. How do I know the bible is even describing the correct god? The more I look at this the more I believe that this is simply a tribal diety. Every thing in it could be 100% true about what they believed about their local god. Nothing it says affects how god really is or isn't. I guess I'm just getting to my wits end when multiplying each of the unlikely events by the errors and impossibilities, not to mention the necessary convolutions required to make it work. I had rather hoped by participating here to gain an understanding of the Christians that I know but that hope is fading.

My belief that these men were divinely inspired stems from the historical evidence that comprises of independent archaeological corroboration and higher criticism coupled with prophetic fulfillment. As for those impossibilities and convolutions, could you provide specific examples? Thank you.

How do we even know if God told them the truth, he could have lied to them, and then made up the whole idea that he doesn't lie.

That is certainly a possiblity, but I've made my decision due to the available evidence.

[steamer]

My belief that these men were divinely inspired stems from the historical evidence that comprises of independent archaeological corroboration and higher criticism coupled with prophetic fulfillment. As for those impossibilities and convolutions, could you provide specific examples? Thank you.

Just click on my name and look up the posts for the items I'm having trouble with.

I do not believe that any archaelogical corroboration for divine inspiration exists, could you give me an example? Higher criticisms would be more subjective opinion and prophetic fulfillment is highly speculative and also subjective (even to it's very meaning).

[btboy500]

...I do not believe that any archaelogical corroboration for divine inspiration exists...

Neither do I, atleast in terms of archaeologic discovery directly affirming the propositon of divine inspiration. In my personal opinion, the successive amount of archaeological evidence validating biblical events and its historical backdrop seems to qualify the historical requirement of external evidence and when coupled with the internal and bibliographical evidence, this would verify the Bible as a trustworthy and reliable book. I would take that total evidence to be good evidence of divine inspiration. As a starter, I would recommend you get aquainted with the book The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by F.F. Bruce. As for prophecy, which would verifiy divine inspiration at a much closer level, I would recommend www.aboutbibleprophecy.com to investigate the numerous prophecies and decide for yourself. I have almost no knowledge in probability, but it seems that if only a handful of specific and accurate predictions came true, divine inspiration would be well substantiated.

[steamer]

Thanks for the links BT, I'll check them out.