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Richard Dawkins: A Gift From God

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    so basically it just boils down to opinion, like seer said.
    No more than a Christian's ideas about moral objectivity would.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      No more than a Christian's ideas about moral objectivity would.
      Except in our world objective moral law would actually exist, even if we sometimes misunderstood it. And the universe would be, in the end, a just place.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Except in our world objective moral law would actually exist, even if we sometimes misunderstood it. And the universe would be, in the end, a just place.
        On the Platonist, spiritualist, and humanist views, objective morality would actually exist, as well, even if we sometimes misunderstood it.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
          No more than a Christian's ideas about moral objectivity would.
          I don't think you understand what "objective morality" means.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            I don't think you understand what "objective morality" means.
            I understand precisely what is meant by the phrase. I don't understand why you would think the assertion that objective morality exists "boils down to opinion" for an atheist but not for a theist.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              I understand precisely what is meant by the phrase. I don't understand why you would think the assertion that objective morality exists "boils down to opinion" for an atheist but not for a theist.
              I was referring to your comment that atheists are all over the place as to why something is moral or not (Society, Plato, Evolution, etc) and basically it just boils down to different atheists have different opinions on why something is moral. They might all agree that murder is immoral, but one might say because it hurts society, one might say because we evolved to believe it is immoral, another might say it is not immoral. That all boils down to a subjective standard of morality.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I was referring to your comment that atheists are all over the place as to why something is moral or not (Society, Plato, Evolution, etc) and basically it just boils down to different atheists have different opinions on why something is moral. They might all agree that murder is immoral, but one might say because it hurts society, one might say because we evolved to believe it is immoral, another might say it is not immoral. That all boils down to a subjective standard of morality.
                You are conflating an individual's understanding of morality with the existence of objective morality. Ironically, this is exactly the same fallacy to which a number of atheists fall prey when they assert that theists can't actually believe in objective morality because they have different views on what is intrinsic to that morality.

                Atheists are no more a single, monolithic whole than are theists.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  On the Platonist, spiritualist, and humanist views, objective morality would actually exist, as well, even if we sometimes misunderstood it.
                  Well no, until they can show how moral truths can exist objectively apart from a mind the claims are not coherent.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    For anyone interested, I will be interviewing R. Scott Smith of BIOLA on his book "In Search of Moral Knowledge" this Saturday on this very topic.

                    With these discussions, I think it's important to start with a simple question.

                    Does objective goodness exist and what is it?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                      For anyone interested, I will be interviewing R. Scott Smith of BIOLA on his book "In Search of Moral Knowledge" this Saturday on this very topic.

                      With these discussions, I think it's important to start with a simple question.

                      Does objective goodness exist and what is it?
                      Bacon?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Well no, until they can show how moral truths can exist objectively apart from a mind the claims are not coherent.
                        ...they all do this. Platonists argue that abstracts are actual, extant entities. Humanists and spiritualists argue that actions have objective consequences which can be evaluated.
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          ...they all do this. Platonists argue that abstracts are actual, extant entities. Humanists and spiritualists argue that actions have objective consequences which can be evaluated.
                          Of course they make the case but it is not coherent. For instance with reincarnation - what created these moral rules that we are governed by? Matter and energy? Do mater and energy care about how we treat each other? As far as moral abstracts, how do they exist? Ethics are about interpersonal interaction, without minds I just don't see it - they might as well go the next step and invoke God. And even if Platonic realism was true, what authority would these moral abstracts have over us. Why would we be obligated to follow them.
                          Last edited by seer; 08-26-2014, 10:38 AM.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Of course they make the case but it is not coherent. For instance with reincarnation - what created these moral rules that we are governed by? Matter and energy? Do mater and energy care about how we treat each other? As far as moral abstracts, how do they exist? Ethics are about interpersonal interaction, without minds I just don't see it - they might as well go the next step and invoke God. And even if Platonic realism was true, what authority would these moral abstracts have over us. Why would we be obligated to follow them.
                            I'm not a Humanist, a spiritualist, or a Platonist, so I won't attempt to defend their position. I'm simply noting that such people do exist.
                            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                              I'm not a Humanist, a spiritualist, or a Platonist, so I won't attempt to defend their position. I'm simply noting that such people do exist.
                              Ok...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                BP will be certainly one of the more informed atheists around here. Others here could learn from him, although I do agree with my fellow Christians that attempts to ground morality objectively in atheism fail.

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