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Vatican 2's Infallibility-Where's the Beef?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
    It certainly is treated infallibly.
    How so?
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
      How so?
      'Ahem'
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by TimelessTheist
        Proof? 'Cause I just gave you a quote from the document saying it wasn't.
        Pope St. John's opening statement is not an official council document (although it provides useful context), and anyone who argues that Vatican II followed anyone's blueprint (aside, perhaps, from the Holy Spirit's) is historically ignorant. The tone and approach of the council ended up changing radically over the course of the different sessions. To say that John did not intend it to make any dogmatic pronouncements does not necessarily mean that it would not.

        Seriously? You're using novusodowatch.com as a reliable source?
        You could dismiss the source out of hand without any explanation, or you could deal with the argument on it merits. Your choice.
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

        Comment


        • #19
          Pope St. John's opening statement is not an official council document (although it provides useful context), and anyone who argues that Vatican II followed anyone's blueprint (aside, perhaps, from the Holy Spirit's) is historically ignorant. The tone and approach of the council ended up changing radically over the course of the different sessions. To say that John did not intend it to make any dogmatic pronouncements does not necessarily mean that it would not.
          Eh, yes, Pope St. John is the one that caused the Council, his statements are vital in understanding what the Council does, and does not. Oh, and it's not just his opening statement:

          "The magisterium of the Church did not wish to pronounce itself under the form of extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements..`` -Pope Paul VI, discourse closing Vatican II

          You could dismiss the source out of hand without any explanation, or you could deal with the argument on it merits. Your choice.
          I dismissed the source because it's a sedavacantist website that claims Vatican 2 was an invention of a Freemason conspiracy, and that anyone currently joined with Church after Vatican 2 is not a Catholic and is damned to hell...but, alright.

          There are two kinds of councils within the Church of Rome, synodal and ecumenical. The term "pastoral" is applied to those councils that address issues of pastoral concern as opposed to issues of teaching, that is, a dogmatic council. While it's true that a predominately pastoral council does not exclude the inclusion of dogmatic pronunciations in it, as you already said, there are only two Dogmatic Constitutions, and both of them only re-define already existing dogma, not create new dogma. So, anything other than those two Dogmatic Constitutions does not, and indeed, cannot invoke infallibility.
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

          Comment


          • #20
            Proof? No your quote did not support your assertion it is too short and out of context. Vatican II is both pastoral and dogmatic. Actually regardless it has the same role as obligating the faithful to follow it regardless.
            I know. I'm not arguing thst it isn't binding while still implemented, I'm just proving that it's not infalliable.
            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

            -Thomas Aquinas

            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

            -Hernando Cortez

            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
              I know. I'm not arguing thst it isn't binding while still implemented, I'm just proving that it's not infalliable.
              Which, if true, would matter exactly why?
              Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                Which, if true, would matter exactly why?
                Because non-infallible decrees can later be undone by proceeding Councils.
                Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                -Thomas Aquinas

                I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                -Hernando Cortez

                What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                  Because non-infallible decrees can later be undone by proceeding Councils.
                  And do you see a council on the horizon that will repudiate particular ideas promulgated by Vatican II?
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                    And do you see a council on the horizon that will repudiate particular ideas promulgated by Vatican II?
                    Well, considering that it teaches against tradition and, at some points, teaches outright heresy, yes, eventually, though, it'll probably take a little while for the Church to shake off the philosophy of modernism that's so entrenched in members of the Church and, indeed, the majority of the world, at this time.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                      Well, considering that it teaches against tradition and, at some points, teaches outright heresy, yes, eventually, though, it'll probably take a little while for the Church to shake off the philosophy of modernism that's so entrenched in members of the Church and, indeed, the majority of the world, at this time.
                      Show me.
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Show me.
                        http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Si...vatican_II.htm

                        Here's a seven-parter.
                        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                        -Thomas Aquinas

                        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                        -Hernando Cortez

                        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                          The linked article is flimsy at best. As you put it in the thread title, where's the beef?
                          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            The linked article is flimsy at best. As you put it in the thread title, where's the beef?
                            I agree, where 'is' the beef? As in, how is the article flimsy? Though, keep in mind that the first part is just a primer. They go into the more serious errors, such as ecumenicism and the requirement of religious liberty, in the later parts
                            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                            -Thomas Aquinas

                            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                            -Hernando Cortez

                            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                              I agree, where 'is' the beef? As in, how is the article flimsy? Though, keep in mind that the first part is just a primer. They go into the more serious errors, such as ecumenicism and the requirement of religious liberty, in the later parts
                              It is sublimely silly to subject an opening address to such pedantic analysis. It is entirely possible to reconcile what JXXIII said with what the authors would like for him to have said. It crosses the line between rigor and pedantry, then starts off on a 100-meter dash, always assuming the worst about Pope John's intentions.
                              Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                It is sublimely silly to subject an opening address to such pedantic analysis. It is entirely possible to reconcile what JXXIII said with what the authors would like for him to have said. It crosses the line between rigor and pedantry, then starts off on a 100-meter dash, always assuming the worst about Pope John's intentions.
                                The Church is supposed to be the supreme spiritual authority, and the Roman Pontiff, the supreme authority within the Church. If what he says is vague or seemingly contradictory to earlier teaching then it is our obligation to point this out, as showing respect and adherence to the routine authority of the Pope does not equate to blind submission and/or abstaining from rightful criticism of his fallible statements.
                                Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                                -Thomas Aquinas

                                I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                                -Hernando Cortez

                                What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                                -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                                Comment

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