Originally posted by TimelessTheist
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Vatican 2's Infallibility-Where's the Beef?
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Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe rhetorical virtue of charity means ascribing to one's interlocutor the strongest possible argument. In this context, it means that, when a Papal statement is ambiguous, you give him the benefit of the doubt instead of accusing him of promoting heresy.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-02-2014, 11:05 PM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostThey clearly state when the texts in question were simply being ambiguous and when they were contradicting earlier Church teaching/tradition. I don't really see an actual response to any of the points listed, or why they're supposedly giving said uncharitable interpretation....and mind you, this is just the first part. It goes into the more serious stuff in later parts.
Of all elements of Vatican II, I would be most prepared to discuss Dignitatis Humanae. If you like, I could make a thread in which we go through it line by line and examine it and its context, including the Syllabus of Errors.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostFor the sake of clarity, I'd like to make it clear that I have absolutely no intention of writing an extensive point-by-point refutation of a 10-year-old article in an SSPX publication, nor would I be prepared to do so at this moment even if I wanted to. I'd much rather be sure that I'm addressing a specific topic that we are both interested in and can adequately understand before I attempt anything like a refutation.
Of all elements of Vatican II, I would be most prepared to discuss Dignitatis Humanae. If you like, I could make a thread in which we go through it line by line and examine it and its context, including the Syllabus of Errors.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-03-2014, 08:34 AM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Let's look closely at the two statements from Lamentabili, then at the JXXIII quote.
The idea being condemned here is that the Church's credibility on ethics is endangered by resisting "present day advances" because of "immutable doctrines." Exactly what advances and what doctrines are being here discussed is not in fact immediately clear. It could refer to a specific idea or an array of them-- including any number of contemporary pseudosciences, e.g. eugenics and race theory. It is as true today in the context of, for example, embryonic stem cell research. The pope is here rejecting the idea that, because we have found the means through science to achieve a certain task, that we must therefore be allowed to pursue that means.
The idea being here condemned is the proposition that science necessitates a re-examination of doctrine.
Now for J23:
true doctrine ought to be expressed using the forms of investigation and literary style of modern thinking, since, to do so, is to sustain the depositum fidei's classic doctrine and is the way to recast it: and this ought to be done patiently, taking into great account that all must be expressed in forms and propositions having a predominantly pastoral character.
OK, so what the Pope is saying here, in essence, is that theology itself demands re-examination-- not because of the challenge posed by modern science, but because of the very nature of the theological task. Not because the Church's ethical credibility is in question, not because modern science demands it, but because the very nature of divine revelation necessitates it. We aren't adopting a literary approach to Scripture because the world wants us to, but because we want to and because we sincerely believe that these methods can bring us to fuller understanding of the texts.
Therefore, the Pope's statement falls afoul of neither condemnation from Lamentabili, and it is only by mis-reading all three quotes that the author arrives at their conclusions.
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The two major theological tasks of Vatican II, as they were taught to me, were ressourcement and aggiornamento. Ressourcement (a French word) means a returning to the sources. This means looking at the theologians and their work on their own terms. It means going beyond the prepared textbooks from seminaries and actually reading the original theologians closely to understand what these theologians did and did not teach so as to understand what actually is and is not genuine Catholic doctrine or genuine Catholic theological discourse.
Aggiornamento means "bringing up to date"-- which most emphatically does not mean conforming with the age, and is in fact entirely in keeping with being in opposition to the world. Aggiornamento means understanding how authentic Catholic doctrine-- which we come to understand through ressourcement-- can best express itself to the world in which it finds itself. The Church does not conform to the world: it adapts to it, bringing forth especially those elements of the tradition which the world most needs. Rather than demanding that the world understand the Church on Her own terms or surrendering Herself to the world on the world's terms, we look for a way of translating eternal truths into contemporary language.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Personally, I do not believe that Vatican II, or any councils or popes or scriptures should be seen as infallible. I know most will consider this view as heretical but I dare say it is a majority view among Catholic theologians, at least among the hundred or so 'Catholic' theologians that I have known personally.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostLet's look closely at the two statements from Lamentabili, then at the JXXIII quote.
The idea being condemned here is that the Church's credibility on ethics is endangered by resisting "present day advances" because of "immutable doctrines." Exactly what advances and what doctrines are being here discussed is not in fact immediately clear. It could refer to a specific idea or an array of them-- including any number of contemporary pseudosciences, e.g. eugenics and race theory. It is as true today in the context of, for example, embryonic stem cell research. The pope is here rejecting the idea that, because we have found the means through science to achieve a certain task, that we must therefore be allowed to pursue that means.
The idea being here condemned is the proposition that science necessitates a re-examination of doctrine.
Now for J23:
true doctrine ought to be expressed using the forms of investigation and literary style of modern thinking, since, to do so, is to sustain the depositum fidei's classic doctrine and is the way to recast it: and this ought to be done patiently, taking into great account that all must be expressed in forms and propositions having a predominantly pastoral character.
OK, so what the Pope is saying here, in essence, is that theology itself demands re-examination-- not because of the challenge posed by modern science, but because of the very nature of the theological task. Not because the Church's ethical credibility is in question, not because modern science demands it, but because the very nature of divine revelation necessitates it. We aren't adopting a literary approach to Scripture because the world wants us to, but because we want to and because we sincerely believe that these methods can bring us to fuller understanding of the texts.
Therefore, the Pope's statement falls afoul of neither condemnation from Lamentabili, and it is only by mis-reading all three quotes that the author arrives at their conclusions.
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The two major theological tasks of Vatican II, as they were taught to me, were ressourcement and aggiornamento. Ressourcement (a French word) means a returning to the sources. This means looking at the theologians and their work on their own terms. It means going beyond the prepared textbooks from seminaries and actually reading the original theologians closely to understand what these theologians did and did not teach so as to understand what actually is and is not genuine Catholic doctrine or genuine Catholic theological discourse.
Aggiornamento means "bringing up to date"-- which most emphatically does not mean conforming with the age, and is in fact entirely in keeping with being in opposition to the world. Aggiornamento means understanding how authentic Catholic doctrine-- which we come to understand through ressourcement-- can best express itself to the world in which it finds itself. The Church does not conform to the world: it adapts to it, bringing forth especially those elements of the tradition which the world most needs. Rather than demanding that the world understand the Church on Her own terms or surrendering Herself to the world on the world's terms, we look for a way of translating eternal truths into contemporary language.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostPersonally, I do not believe that Vatican II, or any councils or popes or scriptures should be seen as infallible. I know most will consider this view as heretical but I dare say it is a majority view among Catholic theologians, at least among the hundred or so 'Catholic' theologians that I have known personally.
What about you? Do you think this might be the majority view of the theology professors you had at Notre Dame? I know back in the day it was considered a hotbed of heresy and dissent. Is that still the case today?אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostHi, Spartacus.
What about you? Do you think this might be the majority view of the theology professors you had at Notre Dame? I know back in the day it was considered a hotbed of heresy and dissent. Is that still the case today?
Oddly enough, there weren't many discussions of the nature of magisterial authority or the conflict between Papal and Conciliar authority (the most direct encounter I had was actually in a political science course), though we read Pastor Aeternus in one of my courses. Frankly, I don't know what they believe about Church infallibility, though I strongly suspect most of the Theology professors I had for class or interacted with extensively would ascribe to it (the one certain exception being the Jewish professor).
And then there's this bit, where a number of ND professors wrote essays on Pope Benedict's work and presented the collected works to him: http://www.todayscatholicnews.org/20...om-notre-dame/ .
tl;dr ND Theology seems orthodox afaictDon't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View Post... The most infamous professors, as I understand it, don't teach very often if at all. ...אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThere used to be a (unwritten?) rule at Notre Dame that every professor, no matter how famous or infamous, was required to teach undergraduates. Hesburgh used to tell a story about firing (or refusing to hire) some hotshot academic who refused to teach undergrads. Is that no longer the case?Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostHi, Spartacus.
What about you? Do you think this might be the majority view of the theology professors you had at Notre Dame? I know back in the day it was considered a hotbed of heresy and dissent. Is that still the case today?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostI mean they're either retired or semi-retired.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWould you call this heresy 'modernism', or do you have a more specific name for it?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
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