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Thread: 1st Century Fragment of Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not unlikely, the early gospels were unauthored, and the hypothetical Q was earlier then the other gospels.
    There had to have been written accounts first. The idea of having an oral account of a story that complex is just stupid.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    There had to have been written accounts first. The idea of having an oral account of a story that complex is just stupid.
    More clarification needed on what may be written and oral accounts. It is pretty well known that fairly long and involved accounts of past stories and accounts and events are passed on as oral accounts. My assessment of the gospels is parts of the gospels and things like the parables may have been first oral accounts. Since no written accounts are available before 65 AD, oral sources are possible.

    Since the possible Q would most likely have been a simpler and smaller gospel that may have been added to, parts may have been oral testimony handed down,
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-24-2014 at 11:52 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    There had to have been written accounts first. The idea of having an oral account of a story that complex is just stupid.
    Oral accounts can be incredibly complex: indeed, the Iliad is a text form of an oral account (or more accurately, the compilation of a series of oral accounts). The problem with oral accounts is that they are frequently not word-for-word consistent, even when told twice by the same person. There are several ways around that, including rote memorization, use of poetic structure, or repetition of common themetic elements, but word-for-word reproduction of an account, especially when separated by time or distance, is difficult.
    "I am Noman, and Noman has done this to you!"

    A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not unlikely, the early gospels were unauthored, and the hypothetical Q was earlier then the other gospels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    There had to have been written accounts first. The idea of having an oral account of a story that complex is just stupid.
    I don't understand how oral tradition relates to this thread. I thought Shuny's comment had to do with unauthored texts in the sense of anonymous since most believe the original autographs of the gospels were not ascribed to authors.

    Is that not correct, Shuny? Or were you speaking of unauthored in the sense of anonymous and oral communal traditions that were merely written down without any true sense of individual authorship?
    Last edited by robrecht; 02-24-2014 at 02:40 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I don't understand how oral tradition relates to this thread.
    It really doesn't, and I believe Omniskeptical's statement was in reply to a mis-statement on Shunyadragon's part. However, once mentioned, I felt it did need to be addressed, if only in passing. THe concept of the stability of oral accounts in a primarily oral culture is a frequent argument in the less-professional end of apologetics.
    "I am Noman, and Noman has done this to you!"

    A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I don't understand how oral tradition relates to this thread. I thought Shuny's comment had to do with unauthored texts in the sense of anonymous since most believe the original autographs of the gospels were not ascribed to authors.

    Is that not correct, Shuny? Or were you speaking of unauthored in the sense of anonymous and oral communal traditions that were merely written down without any true sense of individual authorship?
    I believe, quite literally Mark, Matthew and Luke were unauthored gospels and not written by the apostles. They were written in their present form after 65 AD. I do believe they were added to by oral beliefs, and adapted to assign authors at some time after 125 AD. I believe oral traditions of events that are not first hand testimony are a part of the final gospels as we know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/oral.html

    L. Michael White:
    Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

    It's rather clear from the way that the stories develop in the gospels that the Christians who are writing the gospels a generation after the death of Jesus are doing so from a stock of oral memory, that is, stories that had been passed down to probably by followers. But if we think about the death of Jesus and remember a group of people who would have still been attached to him and to his memory after his death, it must have been a rather stark and traumatic period of time. Many of their initial hopes and expectations had been dashed. All of this talk of the kingdom of God arriving soon seemed to be disconfirmed with his death.

    And yet there's that story of his resurrection of his coming back to life. And it's around that memory, around that set of concerns that a lot of the earliest oral stories about Jesus must have circulated and must have been built. So we have to imagine the followers of Jesus getting together around the dinner table probably and talking about their memories, maybe it was the memory of something he actually said once upon a time or maybe it was a glimpse of an image that they had of him. Surely they thought it was some image of great power.... But the thing that keeps coming back is they tell the story of who he was in retrospect from the experience of what he became through his death and through the story of his resurrection....
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-25-2014 at 04:05 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I believe, quite literally Mark, Matthew and Luke were unauthored gospels and not written by the apostles. They were written in their present form after 65 AD. I do believe they were added to by oral beliefs, and adapted to assign authors at some time after 125 AD. I believe oral traditions of events that are not first hand testimony are a part of the final gospels as we know them.
    By "unauthored", do you mean anonymous?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Another good source:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.eerdmans.com/Products/6782/the-oral-gospel-tradition.aspx

    The Oral Gospel Tradition by James D. G. Dunn

    A collection of James Dunn's essays on the oral tradition of Jesus' teachings

    The traditions about Jesus and his teaching circulated in oral form for many years, continuing to do so for decades following the writing of the New Testament Gospels. James Dunn is one of the major voices urging that more consideration needs to be given to the oral use and transmission of the Jesus tradition as a major factor in giving the Synoptic tradition its enduring character.

    In fifteen scholarly essays Dunn discusses such issues as the role of eyewitnesses and of memory, how the Jesus tradition was shaped by oral usage, and the importance of seeing the biblical materials not so much as frozen writing but as living tradition, today almost as much as in the beginnings of the Gospel tradition.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    By "unauthored", do you mean anonymous?
    Yes, until further information is discovered.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #30
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    It seems like some information on the provenance of this supposed 1st century fragment of the gospel of Mark is starting to be unofficially disseminated by nonscholar apologists:

    http://bricecjones.weebly.com/1/post...in-common.html

    http://bricecjones.weebly.com/1/post...chaeology.html

    http://facesandvoices.wordpress.com/...nnage-a-video/
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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