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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #16
    "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, . . ." -- Matthew 11:16.

    Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.

    "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." -- Matthew 12:41, 42.

    Here τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης, this generation, is genitive, belonging to it. The current generation is meant.

    "And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.. . . _ . . . Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?. . . _ . . . Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:30-36.

    Here γέννημα, ye gereration, is vocative.
    Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.
    Here I understand "these things" to them regard to them crucifying Jesus even as their fathers killed the prophets.

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. . . . " -- Matthew 24:29-34.

    Here ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, this generation, is nominatve, Referring to those who see the events specified.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, . . ." -- Matthew 11:16.

      Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.

      "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." -- Matthew 12:41, 42.

      Here τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης, this generation, is genitive, belonging to it. The current generation is meant.

      "And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.. . . _ . . . Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?. . . _ . . . Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:30-36.

      Here γέννημα, ye gereration, is vocative.
      Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.
      Here I understand "these things" to them regard to them crucifying Jesus even as their fathers killed the prophets.

      "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. . . . " -- Matthew 24:29-34.

      Here ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, this generation, is nominatve, Referring to those who see the events specified.
      For the preterist arguments: read here.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, . . ." -- Matthew 11:16.

        Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.

        "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." -- Matthew 12:41, 42.

        Here τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης, this generation, is genitive, belonging to it. The current generation is meant.

        "And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.. . . _ . . . Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?. . . _ . . . Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:30-36.

        Here γέννημα, ye gereration, is vocative.
        Here τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην , this generation, is accusative.
        Here I understand "these things" to them regard to them crucifying Jesus even as their fathers killed the prophets.

        "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. . . . " -- Matthew 24:29-34.

        Here ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, this generation, is nominatve, Referring to those who see the events specified.
        Doesn't pass exegetical muster. I shall not however regurgitate my commentary here. I took this as more of a non-debate thread as I have no time (or patience) for debate. Quite grouchy as I get older.
        The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Here ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, this generation, is nominatve, Referring to those who see the events specified.
          In relation to "now/not yet" idea of heavens/earth passing: initial 1st century destruction of Jerusalem. And also, future of entire creation under Christ at Judgment, Revelation 20 when heavens/earth are also said to pass. Similarly, "this generation" sees events of the 1st century. And also, "this generation" sees events of Judgment. Thus, none will pass away or taste of death for good until some go into the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. Therefore, "this generation" is not restricted to events of the 1st century, though it can refer to the same generation living in the 1st century, and not to some future generation like you and me which may be a needless red herring some futurists try to assert.

          Comment


          • #20
            Ahhh it means nothing and everything. Gotcha. You keep giving me podcast fodder.
            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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            • #21
              It means we don't need to go looking for some other generation other than the one in the 1st century, which we may agree upon.

              Although "passing away" and "tasting of death" was never limited to the physical or First Death, since some may face a Second Death in the Lake of Fire, relevant verses:

              Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
              Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

              Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

              Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

              Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

              Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
              Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

              Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
              In this context, all is not fulfilled and the Law is not entirely passed until all those not made free from the Law by Christ are finished dying by the Law, when they pass away at the Second Death (Romans 8:2, 1 Corinthians 15:56).
              Last edited by JohnnyP; 01-24-2014, 11:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                A version of it is here:

                http://www.preteristsite.com/plain/warrenend.html

                I say a version, because it was written very informally and there are grammar errors and some page citations are wrong for the source material which I am discovering as I am editing it for publication. Those errors obviously will be fixed in publication, but the argument remains the same… most changes are stylistic with some source corrections. Once I publish the final version that free version will be pulled down.

                I have a podcast as well going through this material at

                http://www.preteristpodcast.com. Episode two I think might be the answer to the question you are looking for…. actually episodes 1 and 2.
                The two podcasts episode 1 & 2 are excellent presentations/introduction of the preterist view.
                Thank you Dee Dee.
                http://www.preteristpodcast.com/wp-c...retcast001.mp3
                http://www.preteristpodcast.com/wp-c...retcast002.mp3

                For now I'm only going to comment in part on Matthew 24:29-34.
                "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

                The primary basis for the belief that this must have taken place in the first century, is the audience whom Jesus was addressing was that "generation."

                [I as a futurist, have long held, over some 44 years now, that "generation" was the generation which saw those signs in the Sun, Moon and "stars" being meteroric phenomena. This is also a key prophecy in my understanding.]

                I recommend listening to Dee Dee's two introductory pod casts. I will comment more later.
                Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 01:40 AM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Doesn't pass exegetical muster. I shall not however regurgitate my commentary here. I took this as more of a non-debate thread as I have no time (or patience) for debate. Quite grouchy as I get older.
                  My comments on "this generation" of course does not pass exegetical muster [from a preterist view point]. I'm more interested in getting the preterist view point down correctly. [I will present my understand along side for comparison.]
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    In relation to "now/not yet" idea of heavens/earth passing: initial 1st century destruction of Jerusalem. And also, future of entire creation under Christ at Judgment, Revelation 20 when heavens/earth are also said to pass. Similarly, "this generation" sees events of the 1st century. And also, "this generation" sees events of Judgment. Thus, none will pass away or taste of death for good until some go into the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. Therefore, "this generation" is not restricted to events of the 1st century, though it can refer to the same generation living in the 1st century, and not to some future generation like you and me which may be a needless red herring some futurists try to assert.
                    I think each point needs to be looked at one at a time. The "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 is in the nominative case, and refers to those "ye" that see those events "Sun, Moon and stars."

                    There is the preterist interpretation. [Which I am interested in understanding correctly.]
                    [And there is the futurist view point that the one's who actually see those yet future events who are that "this gereration." I have held this futurist view over 44 years. I want both views compared side by side.]
                    Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 01:32 AM.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      As you may have noticed the "now/not yet" idea of heavens/earth wording is from Dee Dee's article, I also apply that to a generation passing and tasting death both in the 1st century and at Judgment, which may be somewhat different as a mix of futurist and preterist views.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        As you may have noticed the "now/not yet" idea of heavens/earth wording is from Dee Dee's article, I also apply that to a generation passing and tasting death both in the 1st century and at Judgment, which may be somewhat different as a mix of futurist and preterist views.
                        Well, what you might do then is present the 3 views.
                        1) Perterist.
                        2) Futurist [I'm only going to present pre-millennial post trib view.]
                        3) Mix view.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Well, what you might do then is present the 3 views.
                          1) Perterist.
                          2) Futurist [I'm only going to present pre-millennial post trib view.]
                          3) Mix view.
                          A mix view says it's not restricted to either the past or either the future, but can be both, example from Dee Dee's article:

                          There is a phenomena in Scripture called the "now/not yet" phenomena where the Biblical writers often, in almost the same breath, say an event is done, and then say we are waiting for the event to be done. Some examples are:

                          The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

                          [REST OF EXAMPLES EDITED, PLEASE SEE ARTICLE -JOHNNYP]

                          So, these types of events are progressive and consummational. David Chilton described it in this manner:

                          "This introduces another basic Biblical pattern, a threefold pattern. . . Scripture presents salvation in terms of a definitive-progressive-final structure, and this is why Biblical prophecies often seem to overlap. Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day." -It Not the End of the World
                          So for example, from the same article:

                          Matthew 16:27–28 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
                          A preterist position may be that this verse is limited to the 1st century. I'll let you as a futurist give a comment about this.

                          My "mix" view is that some in the 1st century experienced this like Stephen, before tasting the First Death he saw Jesus in his Kingdom (Acts 7:56 Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.) and as a martyr he is rewarded for good works (Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.)

                          And also, some in the very end of the Great White Throne Judgment experience this where they also see the Lamb in his Kingdom with the Father and angels at the Throne, tasting the Second Death when they are rewarded for evil works.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            My comments on "this generation" of course does not pass exegetical muster [from a preterist view point]. I'm more interested in getting the preterist view point down correctly. [I will present my understand along side for comparison.]
                            I am reposting all of my episodes…. there are some multiple future presentations on this generation since it is so important.

                            I am going on vacation now until next week.
                            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                              A mix view says it's not restricted to either the past or either the future, but can be both, example from Dee Dee's article:
                              Please do keep me in context. You can't use someone as support for a view they don't hold unless you describe how they distinguish themselves. It isn't a fair use of the material. I do hold to already/not yet, but yet I would never call it a "mix" view. I realize it is hard to summarize a great deal of material, and this idea of already/not yet is very crucial to my understanding.


                              I guess the shortest way to summarize would be to see that typology and echoes in the future are biblical and that God's patterns are cyclical. HOWEVER, while pieces and bits of Olivet may repeat, and the themes may repeat, it isn't the fulfillment of the passage, nor is it required to fulfill the passage. All that is required is the events that already happened, so it cannot be used in a strict predictive sense. In the same way Jesus repeated prophecies from the judgment of Bablyon in His oracles against Jerusalem. In no way was He implying that the original prophecy against Babylon was unfulfilled or that there was a one to one correspondence. When viewing things this way, time indicators do not have to be stretched or twisted. They are what they are. Any future application is typological and an echo. Often not seen until the event is passed.
                              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                I think each point needs to be looked at one at a time. The "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 is in the nominative case, and refers to those "ye" that see those events "Sun, Moon and stars."

                                There is the preterist interpretation. [Which I am interested in understanding correctly.]
                                [And there is the futurist view point that the one's who actually see those yet future events who are that "this gereration." I have held this futurist view over 44 years. I want both views compared side by side.]
                                As I have the work to do in getting this site and my podcast site, and editing my book, I apologize that I will not be able to participate substantively. Perhaps someone else can.

                                I leave you with the words of D.A. Carson: “[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.”
                                The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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