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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη
    Here ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη, this generation, is nominatve, Referring to those who see the events specified.
    The fact that ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη is nominative simply indicates that the term is the subject of the sentence. The nominative case does not indicate that the "generation" specified was to be a future generation subsequent to the generation to which Jesus was speaking.

    D. A. Carson is a premillennial futurist whose comment on this subject in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, volume 8 (Zondervan, 1984) is significant in that it demonstrates that the preterist take on the term in question does not spring from any preterist presupposition but is rather the true and natural sense of the biblical text:
    "This generation" (...) can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke. Even if "generation" by itself can have a slightly larger semantic range, to make "this generation" refer to believers in every age, or the generation of believers alive when eschatological events start to happen, is highly artificial.

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    • #32
      Thank you John, I am updating that article 37818 linked to before.
      The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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      • #33
        We have well established the perterist understand that "this generation" Matthew 24:33, 34 refers to the current generation, those spoken to, "when ye."

        "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

        Now Matthew 20:23, ". . . when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." This again, establishes who will be "persecuted." Text indicating just before Christ "the Son of man be come." Placing this event in the first century.

        [The futurist view point, I have long held, that this refers to persecution just prior to the visible coming of or Lord Jesus Christ. "shall . . . come." Acts 1:11.]
        Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 02:51 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • #34
          Ehh? Both of those refer to them back then.
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
            Ehh? Both of those refer to them back then.
            Are you saying, ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven," refers to a first century event?

            I was understanding Matthew 24:33, 34 and Matthew 10:23, as being understood to refer to a first century event.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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            • #36
              No, that is Acts- we are discussing Matthew

              Not to be difficult but I spend pages on this in the commentary-- the scripture index will help, look for Matthew 10:23

              On a plane about to take off now
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                Please do keep me in context. You can't use someone as support for a view they don't hold unless you describe how they distinguish themselves. It isn't a fair use of the material. I do hold to already/not yet, but yet I would never call it a "mix" view. I realize it is hard to summarize a great deal of material, and this idea of already/not yet is very crucial to my understanding.
                Right, my "mix" of preterist/futurist views may be loosely "compared" but are not exactly the same, I will try to clarify more in the future if I cite from you. I usually phrase it as a "dual fulfillment" position.

                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                I guess the shortest way to summarize would be to see that typology and echoes in the future are biblical and that God's patterns are cyclical. HOWEVER, while pieces and bits of Olivet may repeat, and the themes may repeat, it isn't the fulfillment of the passage, nor is it required to fulfill the passage. All that is required is the events that already happened, so it cannot be used in a strict predictive sense. In the same way Jesus repeated prophecies from the judgment of Bablyon in His oracles against Jerusalem. In no way was He implying that the original prophecy against Babylon was unfulfilled or that there was a one to one correspondence. When viewing things this way, time indicators do not have to be stretched or twisted. They are what they are. Any future application is typological and an echo. Often not seen until the event is passed.
                Yeah, my position is a bit stronger on some points, I was focusing more on Chilton's statement, "Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day." regarding partial/initial and complete/final fulfillments.

                Which would be my position on some points like not "tasting of death" both in the 1st century First Deaths and Judgment Second Deaths of that same generation living when Jesus lived. Or as you know well, partial 1st century destruction of Jerusalem, final future destruction of the Western Wall.
                Last edited by JohnnyP; 01-25-2014, 02:47 PM. Reason: typo

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  No, that is Acts- we are discussing Matthew

                  Not to be difficult but I spend pages on this in the commentary-- the scripture index will help, look for Matthew 10:23

                  On a plane about to take off now
                  Enjoy your trip.

                  __________________________________________________ __

                  We so far established:
                  1) Matthew 24:33, 34, that "this generation" is to be understood as the current generation. Those whom Jesus was speaking to. As John Reece pointed out "this generation" is the subject.

                  2) Matthew 10:23, again refers to whom Jesus is speaking to.

                  Now Matthew 16:28, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Without question, Jesus is speaking again to His disciples. That some o them would see Him "coming in His kingdom." It cannot get more clear than this.

                  [The futurist understanding, that I have long held and still hold, is what Jesus was speaking about His transfiguration, which was to take place on the 8th day counting that day Jesus said it, 6 days between those two events, Matthew 17:1-9.]
                  Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 02:48 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sorry to be repitive but again, very detailed discussion on that verse in the commentary
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                      Sorry to be repitive but again, very detailed discussion on that verse in the commentary
                      On this one, I am very disappointed.

                      I will go with this quote from your commentary.
                      . . . Thus—Matthew 16:28 gives us then the definition of "this generation not passing away," it means "some of those standing there will not taste death until…."
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      [The futurist understanding, that I have long held and still hold, is what Jesus was speaking about His transfiguration, which was to take place on the 8th day counting that day Jesus said it, 6 days between those two events, Matthew 17:1-9.]
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Look in the index for Matthew 16- I deal with your specific issue there
                        The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                          Look in the index for Matthew 16- I deal with your specific issue there
                          Ah, found it. Matthew 16:27, 28.

                          . . . Thus—Matthew 16:28 gives us then the definition of "this generation not passing away," it means "some of those standing there will not taste death until…."

                          This CANNOT mean the Transfiguration as some try to do to avoid the obvious implications here. Why? Two reasons at a minimum. Verse 28 does not stand alone. It is intimately connected with verse 27 which CANNOT be said to refer to the Transfiguration. Second, the Transfiguration happened only 6 days later. Can you imagine that Jesus would say something so inane as "some of you standing here will still be alive in six days"? I bet ALL of them were still alive. Jesus introduced this prophesy with a solemn preface; … "Most assuredly I say …" That ALWAYS introduces very heavy and profound stuff, not inane prophecies that even Jean Dixon would have a shot at getting right. He must have been speaking about an event that was far enough in the future that many of his listeners would be dead, but not so far away that all of His listeners would be dead.
                          And it was the very next paragraph too. Ok, now I am not disappointed.
                          Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 08:14 PM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Next regarding, Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; . . . "

                            [In my futurist view point, the words translated "shortly" should be translated "speedily." As in Luke 18:8.]
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Let me try to find what I wrote on that--- will have to wait until I am back home-- not in the commentary I don't think
                              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Next regarding, Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; . . . "

                                [In my futurist view point, the words translated "shortly" should be translated "speedily." As in Luke 18:8.]
                                Translating ἐν τάχει "speedily" does not negate the preterist perspective. Revelation 1:1 alludes to Daniel 2:28f.

                                Daniel 2:28: ἐδήλωσε ... ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτων τῶν ἡμερῶν he has shown ... what things must happen at the end of days.

                                Revelation 1:1: δεῖξαι ... ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει "to show ... what things must happen speedily.

                                The first word in the excerpt from Daniel 2:28 is aorist of δηλόω "show"; the first word in the excerpt from Revelation 1:1 is aorist infinitive of δείκνυμι "to show". Note that the two words have semantic ranges that allow them to be used synonymously.

                                Note the contrast between the text of Daniel and the text of Revelation: that which in the time of Daniel was prophesied to happen at the end of days (or in the last days) was prophesied in Revelation to happen "speedily".

                                From The Book of Revelation (NIGTC: Eerdmans, 1999), by G. K. Beale:
                                Some understand ἐν τάχει as designating the speedy manner of fulfillment, while others take it as referring to the imminent time of fulfillment. The phrase appears to indicate that fulfillment has begun (that it is being fulfilled) or will begin in the near future. Simply put, John understands Daniel's reference to a distant time as referring to his own era, and he updates the text accordingly. What Daniel expected to occur in the distant "latter days" ― the defeat of cosmic evil and the ushering in of the divine kingdom ― John expects to begin "quickly," in his own generation, if it has not already begun to happen.*
                                *John's understanding of Daniel 2 as having already begun fulfillment is not unique in the NT. Luke 20:18 (= Matt. 21:44) quotes Jesus as equating the "stone" of Dan. 2:34-35 with his own ministry. The same "inaugurated end time" view of Dan. 2:35 is probably also apparent in Rev. 12:8.

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