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The Battle of Tours (Poitiers)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
    The victory of the ragtag army of European Christians and pagans at Tours, France in October 732 A.D. halted the Muslim military advance before it conquered all of Europe.

    Muslim armies conquered North Africa, wiping out the strongest (?) bastion of Christianity, then invaded the Iberian peninsula, finally reaching the heart of France by 732.
    I wouldn't call North Africa the strongest bastion of Christianity; in fact, it was probably the weakest. The Melitian and Donatist schisms were strongest there; it subsequently suffered from Arian aggressors from Iberia, and was divided when the Moslems conquered between Orthodox and Monophysite Christians. It also appears that Christianity in North Africa was largely confined to the cities, and never took strong root in the countryside. If the Nag Hammadi documents are any indication, gnosticism also flourished there.

    The Middle East was the second weakest, being divided among Orthodox, Nestorian, and Monophysite Christians.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      The Golden Age of "Islam" was also a Golden Age of Judaism. During this time, Hebrew was revived as a literary language and Jewish scholars wrote works of philosophy, poetry and prose. The Jews also produced their own language called Judeo-Arabic and many of their works are written in this language too. (The Bible was also translated into Judeo-Arabic)

      Much of the greatest poetry in Hebrew written since the Bible comes from this period. Sa’adya Gaon, Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Ezra (Moses and Abraham), Maimonides, Yehuda Halevi, Yehudah al-Harizi, Samuel ha-Nagid, and many more...........

      Islamic Spain, Baghdad, Qayrawan, Cairo,....etc are some of the many centers of Jewish excellence during this time.......

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      • #18
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        The Golden Age of "Islam" was also a Golden Age of Judaism. During this time, Hebrew was revived as a literary language and Jewish scholars wrote works of philosophy, poetry and prose. The Jews also produced their own language called Judeo-Arabic and many of their works are written in this language too. (The Bible was also translated into Judeo-Arabic)

        Much of the greatest poetry in Hebrew written since the Bible comes from this period. Sa’adya Gaon, Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Ezra (Moses and Abraham), Maimonides, Yehuda Halevi, Yehudah al-Harizi, Samuel ha-Nagid, and many more...........

        Islamic Spain, Baghdad, Qayrawan, Cairo,....etc are some of the many centers of Jewish excellence during this time.......
        It probably would be considering the Jews helped the Moors take over.
        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

        -Thomas Aquinas

        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

        -Hernando Cortez

        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
          It probably would be considering the Jews helped the Moors take over.
          Take over Spain? Admittedly I am not clear exactly what "Moor" means.
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            Take over Spain? Admittedly I am not clear exactly what "Moor" means.
            They were Muslims that invaded Spain, coming out from the territory of Morocco, thus they were named "Moors". Though, yes, it's historical fact that the Jews did help them, very frequently. They had a correct reputation back then of opening the city gates to let the enemy raiding parties in, so they would be allowed a high place in the society later set up by the conquering Moors. For Christians, however, Islamic Spain was hell on Earth.
            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

            -Thomas Aquinas

            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

            -Hernando Cortez

            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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            • #21
              Moors are a mix of Berbers and Arabs, the Berbers are a sort of tribal (?) affiliations of North Africa.

              Before 711 CE this territory (Spain/Al-Andalus) was under Visigoth rule. The Visigoths were non-Trinitarian (?) Christians at first but during the time of King Reccared (587 CE) became Trinitarian Christian (Catholic). The Visigoths had their own laws which were more tolerant for Jews (and women) than the Canon laws of the Catholic Church. But, with the conversion, the Trinitarian Church imposed oppressive laws against Jews and in 612 CE tried to forcibly convert Jews. By 709 CE tensions between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christians caused feuds. Oppressive taxes by the Visigoths did not help the situation. Also, a portion of the population at this time were slaves. All these disaffected peoples were ripe for change and that change came in 711 CE with the Moors.

              Taxes by the new rulers were less oppressive, Jews were freed from oppressive laws and were able to practice their religion and follow their own laws---as were Christians. Slaves who converted to Islam gained their freedom. Nevertheless, tensions between communities and ethnicities continued to exist. (for example, the Muslim Berbers and Arabs did not always get along....) Also, there were a few fanatic Christians who caused trouble by going out of their way to make derogatory and inflammatory comments against Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) in public. This caused unnecessary tensions. (In one case, two Christians went into a mosque while people were praying and loudly defamed the Prophet)

              There were Berber and Arab Christians in Al-Andalus as well as Muslims who converted to Christianity.......

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Source please? Especially the "universal religious freedom". Which would have been impossible under the Islamic mandate to kill or convert any people that weren't Christian, or Jews*.

                *There was one other group, but I can't remember who they were specifically.
                Zoroastrians.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  Wiki? Seriously?

                  You don't know how Islam generally treated "dhimmis" do you? They were second class citizens, often put to the level of a slave. Only the wealthiest that could afford the jizyah tax could remain relatively safe as they were. Any attempt to actually live out a Christian life would lead to death, as they didn't allow Christians to preach to Muslims, the penalty if found out was death. So too was the penalty if one converted from Islam to any other religion.
                  Not to mention that even those who could afford the taxes the laws generally made it a point to humiliate and belittle them as much as possible during the process.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Moors are a mix of Berbers and Arabs, the Berbers are a sort of tribal (?) affiliations of North Africa.

                    Before 711 CE this territory (Spain/Al-Andalus) was under Visigoth rule. The Visigoths were non-Trinitarian (?) Christians at first but during the time of King Reccared (587 CE) became Trinitarian Christian (Catholic). The Visigoths had their own laws which were more tolerant for Jews (and women) than the Canon laws of the Catholic Church. But, with the conversion, the Trinitarian Church imposed oppressive laws against Jews and in 612 CE tried to forcibly convert Jews. By 709 CE tensions between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christians caused feuds. Oppressive taxes by the Visigoths did not help the situation. Also, a portion of the population at this time were slaves. All these disaffected peoples were ripe for change and that change came in 711 CE with the Moors.

                    Taxes by the new rulers were less oppressive, Jews were freed from oppressive laws and were able to practice their religion and follow their own laws---as were Christians. Slaves who converted to Islam gained their freedom. Nevertheless, tensions between communities and ethnicities continued to exist. (for example, the Muslim Berbers and Arabs did not always get along....) Also, there were a few fanatic Christians who caused trouble by going out of their way to make derogatory and inflammatory comments against Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) in public. This caused unnecessary tensions. (In one case, two Christians went into a mosque while people were praying and loudly defamed the Prophet)

                    There were Berber and Arab Christians in Al-Andalus as well as Muslims who converted to Christianity.......
                    Well, that certainly is an Islamophile version of 'history'. Not much of it is true, in reality, though. Barely any of Canon Law even concerned the Jews, and for the few laws that do, did allow them to practice their own religion. Taxes by the new, invalid rulers were terrible, and Jews were only had freedom because they helped the Moors take over. Christians were technically allowed to practice their own religion, however, you're ignoring the aspect of Islamic law that gives the respective rulers of settlements absolute power over the citizens. As a result, the Christians were persecuted, horribly. There were executions daily, women and little girls were taken from their husbands and fathers and raped in harems, and it was so bad that some Christians actually opted to go live in the wilderness, rather than in the cities.

                    Also, there were a few fanatic Christians who caused trouble by going out of their way to make derogatory and inflammatory comments against Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) in public. This caused unnecessary tensions. (In one case, two Christians went into a mosque while people were praying and loudly defamed the Prophet)
                    I wish I could have been there, that sounds hilarious. Though I would've supported the 'fanatical Christians' killing the conquerors as well, which they eventually managed to do with the Reconquista.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Zoroastrians.
                      Yeah, I know it's believed that it was indeed them(doesn't seem to be a very sure identification based on what I've read), but there was a different name used in Quran translations I have seen. I just remembered, it was the Sabians.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Taxes by the new rulers were less oppressive, Jews were freed from oppressive laws and were able to practice their religion and follow their own laws---as were Christians. Slaves who converted to Islam gained their freedom.
                        That (taxes, etc.) generally was a great, if not the greatest, reason why the Umayyad Empire grew so quickly with relatively little fighting.
                        Last edited by Truthseeker; 09-08-2014, 05:18 PM.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                          Well, that certainly is an Islamophile version of 'history'. Not much of it is true, in reality, though. Barely any of Canon Law even concerned the Jews, and for the few laws that do, did allow them to practice their own religion. Taxes by the new, invalid rulers were terrible, and Jews were only had freedom because they helped the Moors take over. Christians were technically allowed to practice their own religion, however, you're ignoring the aspect of Islamic law that gives the respective rulers of settlements absolute power over the citizens. As a result, the Christians were persecuted, horribly. There were executions daily, women and little girls were taken from their husbands and fathers and raped in harems, and it was so bad that some Christians actually opted to go live in the wilderness, rather than in the cities.
                          Sounds pretty much like what ISIS is doing.
                          Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                          1 Corinthians 16:13

                          "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                          -Ben Witherington III

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                            Sounds pretty much like what ISIS is doing.
                            Not surprising. Peaceful evangilization only exists in Islam when it's convenient for them.
                            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                            -Thomas Aquinas

                            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                            -Hernando Cortez

                            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The Church and Church Law----The (Western) Church had a concept of "Deicide"(killing God)---an accusation leveled at Jews for which they had to pay in perpetuity.
                              Some statements of Church leaders that enabled this belief----
                              3rd century CE:
                              Origen (185 - 254 CE): "The blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world."
                              St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."

                              4th century CE:
                              St Athanasius (circa 296 - 373): Jews "...have no abiding place, but they wander everywhere .... But in every place they transgress the law, and as the judgments of God require; they keep days of grief instead of gladness. Now the cause of this to them was the slaying of the Lord, and that they did not reverence the Only Begotten .... Therefore the Lord cursed them under the figure of the fig tree."
                              St. Hilary of Poitiers (315 - 367) referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever.
                              John of Antioch (347 - 407) (a.k.a. John Chrysostom): He delivered a group of four homilies titled "Against the Jews". Homily 4 said, in part: "The difference between the Jews and us in not a small one, is it? Is the dispute between us over ordinary, everyday matters, so that you think the two religions are really one and the same? Why are you mixing what cannot be mixed? They crucified the Christ whom you adore as God. Do you see how great the difference is? How is it, then, that you keep running to those who slew Christ when you say that you worship him whom they crucified?"

                              5th century CE:
                              St. Jerome (circa 345 - 420): "Judas betrayed Me [Jesus], the Jews persecuted and crucified Me....In particular, this is the story of Judas; in general it is that of the Jews....Judas is cursed, that in Judas the Jews may be accursed."
                              St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
                              On another occasion, he wrote: "Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ."

                              7th century:
                              The 7th Church Council of Toledo, Spain in 694 CE defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other church fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their collective responsibility for the death of Jesus.
                              http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_jesu5.htm

                              Between the 5th and 7th centuries, the many "Council of Toledo" formulated some of the Church Canon including those pertaining to the mistreatment of Jews.

                              Taxes in Islamic territories---Both Muslims and Non-Muslims were taxed. During the Ummayad Dynasty, Non-Muslims and non-Arab Muslims paid more taxes than the Arab Muslims (this was implemented in order to discourage conversion to Islam). Nevertheless these taxes were much lower than those of the Persians, Byzantines and others......

                              Even with lower taxes---the economy prospered---partly because of industrialization and partly because of robust trade aided with financial instruments that facilitated it. Al-Andalus (Spain) also benefited from this trend as the region prospered under Islamic rule as it had not before......Agriculture in Al-Andalus also benefited because of the introduction of new crops and the use of the water wheel for irrigation.....


                              Universality of Islam----The Quran Surah 2 verse 62---
                              " Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and Sabians,
                              Any who believe in God, and the last day, and work righteousness,
                              shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve"

                              Surah 2 verse 136
                              "Say you: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and the other of them and we submit to God.

                              Surah 2 verse 148
                              "To each is a goal to which God turns him; Then strive together (as in a race) towards all that is good. Wheresoever you are God will bring you together, for God has power over all things.

                              Surah 3 verse 64
                              " Say: O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God....."

                              and many more such verses.......

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Even with lower taxes---the economy prospered---partly because of industrialization and partly because of robust trade aided with financial instruments that facilitated it.
                                Why do you say that, "Even with lower taxes--the economy prospered"? Might it not be because taxes were low? If you will study economic history, generally, the lower the taxes exacted, the better the economic performance.
                                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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