Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Battle of Tours (Poitiers)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    snip
    and many more such verses.......
    And many, many more that state that Muslims are to kill until Islam is the only remaining religion. You conveniently left out those verses.

    Q. 2:216-217

    "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not."

    Q. 8:38-39

    "Say to the unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from unbelief), their past would be forgiven them, but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere."

    Q. 47:4-6

    "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite them at their necks. At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them)."

    Q. 9:29-30

    "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God ... God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they are commanded to worship but One God ..."

    Comment


    • #32
      The Church and Church Law----The (Western) Church had a concept of "Deicide"(killing God)---an accusation leveled at Jews for which they had to pay in perpetuity.
      Some statements of Church leaders that enabled this belief----
      3rd century CE:
      Origen (185 - 254 CE): "The blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world."
      St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): "This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: 'your father is the devil' [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel."

      4th century CE:
      St Athanasius (circa 296 - 373): Jews "...have no abiding place, but they wander everywhere .... But in every place they transgress the law, and as the judgments of God require; they keep days of grief instead of gladness. Now the cause of this to them was the slaying of the Lord, and that they did not reverence the Only Begotten .... Therefore the Lord cursed them under the figure of the fig tree."
      St. Hilary of Poitiers (315 - 367) referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever.
      John of Antioch (347 - 407) (a.k.a. John Chrysostom): He delivered a group of four homilies titled "Against the Jews". Homily 4 said, in part: "The difference between the Jews and us in not a small one, is it? Is the dispute between us over ordinary, everyday matters, so that you think the two religions are really one and the same? Why are you mixing what cannot be mixed? They crucified the Christ whom you adore as God. Do you see how great the difference is? How is it, then, that you keep running to those who slew Christ when you say that you worship him whom they crucified?"

      5th century CE:
      St. Jerome (circa 345 - 420): "Judas betrayed Me [Jesus], the Jews persecuted and crucified Me....In particular, this is the story of Judas; in general it is that of the Jews....Judas is cursed, that in Judas the Jews may be accursed."
      St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
      On another occasion, he wrote: "Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ."

      7th century:
      The 7th Church Council of Toledo, Spain in 694 CE defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other church fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their collective responsibility for the death of Jesus.
      http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_jesu5.htm

      Between the 5th and 7th centuries, the many "Council of Toledo" formulated some of the Church Canon including those pertaining to the mistreatment of Jews.
      How does that have anything to do with what I said? Yes, they were treated as second class citizens, but they were still allowed to practice their religion. They would not be Jews if they did not. The territories of Christendom were Catholic States, anyone who wasn't a Catholic was there simply because the monarchy allowed it, usually because they needed somewhere to take refuge, or something. They didn't have full citizenship, and could be removed if they caused too much trouble, however, no one was 'forcing' them to live there, on the contrary, they were doing them a great service by simply allowing the Jews to live within their territories.

      Taxes in Islamic territories---Both Muslims and Non-Muslims were taxed. During the Ummayad Dynasty, Non-Muslims and non-Arab Muslims paid more taxes than the Arab Muslims (this was implemented in order to discourage conversion to Islam). Nevertheless these taxes were much lower than those of the Persians, Byzantines and others......
      Huh, yeah, I wonder why that was. Could it be that they just stole an entire country from its native people, and thus, gained all of its wealth, along with the wealth of their own homeland? Or could it be that the Persians and Byzantines 'needed' more money, in order to raise military units, to defend themselves from the Muslims that kept attacking them? Pick on or the other, as both are true.

      Even with lower taxes---the economy prospered---partly because of industrialization and partly because of robust trade aided with financial instruments that facilitated it. Al-Andalus (Spain) also benefited from this trend as the region prospered under Islamic rule as it had not before......Agriculture in Al-Andalus also benefited because of the introduction of new crops and the use of the water wheel for irrigation.....
      Eh, no it didn't. The Muslims didn't introduce those things, advanced irrigation techniques were already introduced to Spain a long time ago by the Roman Empire, after which, those technologies were razed and destroyed due to invasions by the same Muslims that reintroduced those technologies back into Spain after they conquered it.

      Oh, and they stole an entire country, of course they're going to be economically prosperous, I don't ever remember saying they weren't.

      Also, the idea that Spain 'thrived' under Islamic rule, is a complete joke. Other than the economics (which mostly benefited the Muslim overlords rather than the native Spaniards) they brought nothing, and actually made things a lot worse.

      For instance, Visigothic Spain was well known for its thriving intellectual culture. Their philosophical and literary traditions of Visigothic Spain were thriving....and then they were flung, far backwards by the Moorish Conquest, and had to be rebuilt from ground up, by reestablishing the same, non-Islamic, intellectual traditions of Visigothic Spain under Islamic rule. After the Reconquista of Spain, the intellectual society of Spain began to thrive again. Though, this isn't surprising since the supposed intellectual "achievements" of Islam were just stolen from everyone else. For instance, the 'Arabic' numeral system was adopted from Indians. Another example, is that the Arabs were only able 'preserve' the works of ancient Greece, by translating them into Arabic, because the Byzantines already preserved the original Greek copies in the first place.

      Buddy, this isn't a joke. The conquest of Spain was 'not' a nice thing for any Spaniard, and especially any Catholic Spaniard. People were slaughtered. Women, who's husbands were killed in the slaughter, were raped in harems. The Moors took infants from their mothers' arms and shoved their swords through their heads. The King of Spain was beheaded, and the Queen of Spain was forcibly married to the man who killed him.
      Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-09-2014, 08:44 PM.
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #33
        @TimelessTheist

        We have very different views....but some of your points are interesting.........

        "Jews allowed to practice their religion"(Visigothic Spain)---From what I understand, the Visigoths had their own laws and these were not unfair to Jews. The Canon laws were, and these may have been unenthusiastically implemented by the Visigoths simply in order to please the Church in exchange for legitimacy. Nevertheless, there were discriminatory Church laws such as that of 612 CE that forced babtism on the Jews---essentially depriving them from practicing their religion.......thus creating discontent among the large Jewish population. Comparatively, though conditions for Jews may have been bad in Visigothic Spain, they were worse under Catholic rulers (Isabella and Ferdinand)

        Warfare as reason for high taxes----The Byzantines and Persians fought each other for a long time so this could factor into high taxes---Europe also saw a lot of fighting between regional power players (---which included the Catholic Church). Because of these power plays, alliances were always shifting---for ex, the Franks allied with the Lombards at one point---then later fought them........So Visigothic Spain may have needed high taxes to support their military adventures......However, this makes it amazing that despite taking over such a large territory the Ummayads did not need heavy taxes...!!......

        Hydro-power----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_wheel
        Arab engineers took over the water technology of the hydraulic societies of the ancient Near East; they adopted the Greek water wheel as early as the 7th century, excavation of a canal in the Basra region discovered remains of a water wheel dating from this period. Hama in Syria still preserves one of its large wheels, on the river Orontes, although they are no longer in use. One of the largest had a diameter of about 20 metres and its rim was divided into 120 compartments. Another wheel that is still in operation is found at Murcia in Spain, La Nora, and although the original wheel has been replaced by a steel one, the Moorish system during al-Andalus is otherwise virtually unchanged. Some medieval Islamic compartmented water wheels could lift water as high as 30 meters. Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi's Kitab al-Hawi in the 10th century described a noria in Iraq that could lift as much as 153,000 litres per hour, or 2550 litres per minute. This is comparable to the output of modern Norias in East Asia which can lift up to 288,000 litres per hour, or 4800 litres per minute.

        The industrial uses of watermills in the Islamic world date back to the 7th century, while horizontal-wheeled and vertical-wheeled water mills were both in widespread use by the 9th century. A variety of industrial watermills were used in the Islamic world, including gristmills, hullers, sawmills, shipmills, stamp mills, steel mills, sugar mills, and tide mills. By the 11th century, every province throughout the Islamic world had these industrial watermills in operation, from al-Andalus and North Africa to the Middle East and Central Asia. Muslim and Christian engineers also used crankshafts and water turbines, gears in watermills and water-raising machines, and dams as a source of water, used to provide additional power to watermills and water-raising machines. Fulling mills and steel mills may have spread from Islamic Spain to Christian Spain in the 12th century. Industrial water mills were also employed in large factory complexes built in al-Andalus between the 11th and 13th centuries.
        The engineers of the Islamic world developed several solutions to achieve the maximum output from a water wheel. One solution was to mount them to piers of bridges to take advantage of the increased flow. Another solution was the shipmill, a type of water mill powered by water wheels mounted on the sides of ships moored in midstream. This technique was employed along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in 10th century Iraq, where large shipmills made of teak and iron could produce 10 tons of flour from corn every day for the granary in Baghdad. The flywheel mechanism, which is used to smooth out the delivery of power from a driving device to a driven machine, was invented by Ibn Bassal (fl. 1038-1075) of Al-Andalus; he pioneered the use of the flywheel in the saqiya (chain pump) and noria. The engineers Al-Jazari in the 13th century and Taqi al-Din in the 16th century described many inventive water-raising machines in their technological treatises. They also employed water wheels to power a variety of devices, including various water clocks and automata.

        Visigothic culture----If you have more information on this subject I would be interested........

        Comment


        • #34
          Advancing and correcting ancient knowledge---This is a large subject...the Muslim scholars did a lot more than simply preserve ancient knowledge---they also advanced it (considerably)......

          If Ancient knowledge had been preserved by the Byzantines---then there would have been no need to translate the works of "Islamic" scholars into latin (the word "Islamic" is used loosely as Jewish, Christian, and other...scholars also contributed)

          a glimpse of a few latinized names of Muslim Scholars
          http://www.muslimheritage.com/articl...uslim-scholars

          Al Farabius (Al Farabi)
          Alghorismus (Al-Kwarizimi)
          Alhazen (Al Haytham)
          Al-Kindus (Al Kindi)
          Avempace (Ibn Bajja)
          Averoes (Ibn Rushd)
          Avicenna (Ibn Sina)
          Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan)
          Albucasis (Abu'l Qasim)
          Albategnius (Al Battani)
          Abubacer (Ibn Tufayl)

          There is a huge list of more names and their achievements....on the net......

          Comment


          • #35
            I have decided to unsubscribe. Timeless Theist and siam made many statements that they did not document (references made to the literature).
            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

            Comment


            • #36
              "Jews allowed to practice their religion"(Visigothic Spain)---From what I understand, the Visigoths had their own laws and these were not unfair to Jews. The Canon laws were, and these may have been unenthusiastically implemented by the Visigoths simply in order to please the Church in exchange for legitimacy. Nevertheless, there were discriminatory Church laws such as that of 612 CE that forced babtism on the Jews---essentially depriving them from practicing their religion.......thus creating discontent among the large Jewish population. Comparatively, though conditions for Jews may have been bad in Visigothic Spain, they were worse under Catholic rulers (Isabella and Ferdinand)
              Uh, Canon Law, very clearly, ruled against baptisms done with full coercive force, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Albeit there was much debate over what could actually be defined as full coercive force, the consensus was that actually mandating that the Jews be forcibly held down and have water poured on them is not a valid baptism.

              Warfare as reason for high taxes----The Byzantines and Persians fought each other for a long time so this could factor into high taxes---Europe also saw a lot of fighting between regional power players (---which included the Catholic Church). Because of these power plays, alliances were always shifting---for ex, the Franks allied with the Lombards at one point---then later fought them........So Visigothic Spain may have needed high taxes to support their military adventures......However, this makes it amazing that despite taking over such a large territory the Ummayads did not need heavy taxes...!!......
              The Byzantines were also under such a heavy attack from the Muslims, that they begged the Crusaders to help fight them off. I'm aware of European in-fighting but....the Catholic Church? Are you suggesting that the Papal States attacked and conquered other territories, unprovoked? 'Cause, if you are, that didn't happen.

              However, this makes it amazing that despite taking over such a large territory the Ummayads did not need heavy taxes...!!
              The Treaty of Tudmir actually required that they pay the Moorish homeland extortion money in addition to the regular taxes. Slave labor probably helped as well.

              The industrial uses of watermills in the Islamic world date back to the 7th century, while horizontal-wheeled and vertical-wheeled water mills were both in widespread use by the 9th century. A variety of industrial watermills were used in the Islamic world, including gristmills, hullers, sawmills, shipmills, stamp mills, steel mills, sugar mills, and tide mills. By the 11th century, every province throughout the Islamic world had these industrial watermills in operation, from al-Andalus and North Africa to the Middle East and Central Asia. Muslim and Christian engineers also used crankshafts and water turbines, gears in watermills and water-raising machines, and dams as a source of water, used to provide additional power to watermills and water-raising machines. Fulling mills and steel mills may have spread from Islamic Spain to Christian Spain in the 12th century. Industrial water mills were also employed in large factory complexes built in al-Andalus between the 11th and 13th centuries.
              The engineers of the Islamic world developed several solutions to achieve the maximum output from a water wheel. One solution was to mount them to piers of bridges to take advantage of the increased flow. Another solution was the shipmill, a type of water mill powered by water wheels mounted on the sides of ships moored in midstream. This technique was employed along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in 10th century Iraq, where large shipmills made of teak and iron could produce 10 tons of flour from corn every day for the granary in Baghdad. The flywheel mechanism, which is used to smooth out the delivery of power from a driving device to a driven machine, was invented by Ibn Bassal (fl. 1038-1075) of Al-Andalus; he pioneered the use of the flywheel in the saqiya (chain pump) and noria. The engineers Al-Jazari in the 13th century and Taqi al-Din in the 16th century described many inventive water-raising machines in their technological treatises. They also employed water wheels to power a variety of devices, including various water clocks and automata.
              And, as I already said, this sort of technology was already introduced into Spain by the Roman Empire. What they brought was nothing new.

              Advancing and correcting ancient knowledge---This is a large subject...the Muslim scholars did a lot more than simply preserve ancient knowledge---they also advanced it (considerably)......

              If Ancient knowledge had been preserved by the Byzantines---then there would have been no need to translate the works of "Islamic" scholars into latin (the word "Islamic" is used loosely as Jewish, Christian, and other...scholars also contributed)
              Eh, sorry, but it is historical fact that the Muslims copied the Byzantine Greek copies, into Arabic. They didn't preserve anything, the Greeks did. However, through the conquests of the Crusades, Christendom gained access to these Arabic copies of the, unavailable to them, Greek copies of the Byzantines.

              Once again, I see no reference to the fact that the conquering Muslims, specifically the Moorish warlord Musa, intentionally and systematically slaughtered civilians, including infants, doing so far 'after' the actual siege, and by extension, initial fighting and storming of the city, were over. Oh, and also no reference to how they systematically raped literally thousands of women while Spain was under their rule. Those two things don't sound very 'prosperous' to me.
              Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-10-2014, 08:55 AM.
              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

              -Thomas Aquinas

              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

              -Hernando Cortez

              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                I have decided to unsubscribe. Timeless Theist and siam made many statements that they did not document (references made to the literature).
                All you had to do was ask. Which claims to you want references to?
                Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                -Thomas Aquinas

                I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                -Hernando Cortez

                What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                Comment


                • #38
                  Any hunches about whether the Religion of Peace has a surprise planned for the States tomorrow, 11 September 2013?

                  K54

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sometimes it is difficult to determine the interest of readers in the subject under discussion.....I apologize if my approach has been too casual.

                    George Saliba of Columbia University explains the relationship between ancient knowledge, the needs of the religion of Islam and the developments and advancements of "Islamic" scholarship and knowledge---specifically relating to math and astronomy.......

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Treaty of Tudmir?----It seems very generous for its time....!....

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Orihuela
                      “In the name of God, the merciful and compassionate. This is a document [granted] by ‘Abd al-‘Aziz ibn Musá ibn Nusair to Tudmir, son of Ghabdush, establishing a treaty of peace and the promise and protection of God and his Prophet) may God bless him and grant him peace). We [‘Abd al-‘Aziz] will not set special conditions for him or for any among his men, nor harass him, nor remove him from power. His followers will not be killed or taken prisoner, nor will they be separated from their women and children. They will not be coerced in matters of religion, their churches will not be burned, nor will sacred objects be taken from the realm, [so long as] he [Tudmir] remains sincere and fulfills the [following] conditions that we have set for him. He has reached a settlement concerning seven towns: Orihuela, Valentilla, Alicante, Mula, Bigastro, Ello, and Lorca. He will not give shelter to fugitives, nor to our enemies, nor encourage any protected person to fear us, nor conceal news of our enemies. He and [each of] his men shall [also] pay one dinar every year, together with four measures of wheat, four measures of barley, four liquid measures of concentrated fruit juice, four liquid meastures of vinegar, four of honey, and four of olive oil. Slaves must each pay half of this amount. {Names of four witnesses follow, and the document is dated from the Muslim month of Rajab, in the year 94 of the Hijra (April 713).}”

                      Church and Baptisms---
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._Jews_in_Spain

                      ....following the conversion of the Visigothic royal family under Recared from Arianism to Catholicism in 587. In their desire to consolidate the realm under the new religion, the Visigoths adopted an aggressive policy concerning the Jews. As the king and the church acted in a single interest, the situation for the Jews deteriorated. Recared approved the Third Council of Toledo's move in 589 to forcibly baptize the children of mixed marriages between Jews and Christians. Toledo III also forbade Jews from holding public office, from having intercourse with Christian women, and from performing circumcisions on slaves or Christians. Still, Recared was not entirely successful in his campaigns: not all Visigoth Arians had converted to Catholicism; the unconverted were true allies of the Jews, oppressed like themselves, and Jews received some protection from Arian bishops and the independent Visigothic nobility.

                      While the policies of subsequent Kings Liuva II (601–604), Witteric (603–610), and Gundemar (610–612) are unknown to us, Sisebut (612–620) embarked on Recared's course with renewed vigor. Soon after upholding the edict of compulsory baptism for children of mixed marriages, Sisebut instituted what was to become an unfortunate recurring phenomenon in Spanish official policy, in issuing the first edicts against the Jews of expulsion from Spain. Following his 613 decree that the Jews either convert or be expelled, some fled to Gaul and North Africa, while as many as 90,000 converted. Many of these conversos, as did those of later periods, maintained their Jewish identities in secret (Assis, p. 10). During the more tolerant reign of Suintila (621–631), however, most of the conversos returned to Judaism, and a number of the exiled returned to Spain (Encyclopaedica Judaica, p. 221.)
                      In 633, the Fourth Council of Toledo, while taking a stance in opposition to compulsory baptism, convened to address the problem of crypto-Judaism. It was decided that, if a professed Christian were determined to be a practicing Jew, his or her children were to be taken away to be raised in monasteries or trusted Christian households (Assis, p. 10). The council further directed that all who had reverted to Judaism during the reign of Swintila had to return to Christianity (Katz, p. 13). The trend toward intolerance continued with the ascent of Chintila (636–639). He directed the Sixth Council of Toledo to order that only Catholics could remain in the kingdom, and taking an unusual step further, Chintila excommunicated "in advance" any of his successors who did not act in accordance with his anti-Jewish edicts. Again, many converted while others chose exile (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
                      And yet the "problem" continued. The Eighth Council of Toledo in 653 again tackled the issue of Jews within the realm. Further measures at this time included the forbidding of all Jewish rites (including circumcision and the observation of the Shabbat), and all converted Jews had to promise to put to death, either by burning or by stoning, any of their brethren known to have relapsed to Judaism. The Council was aware that prior efforts had been frustrated by lack of compliance among authorities on the local level: therefore, anyone — including nobles and clergy — found to have aided Jews in the practice of Judaism were to be punished by seizure of one quarter of their property and excommunication (Katz, p. 16).
                      These efforts again proved unsuccessful. The Jewish population remained sufficiently sizable as to prompt Wamba (672–680) to issue limited expulsion orders against them, and the reign of Erwig (680–687) also seemed vexed by the issue. The 12th Council of Toledo again called for forced baptism, and, for those who disobeyed, seizure of property, corporal punishment, exile, and slavery. Jewish children over seven years of age were taken from their parents and similarly dealt with in 694. Erwig also took measures to ensure that Catholic sympathizers would not be inclined to aid Jews in their efforts to subvert the council's rulings. Heavy fines awaited any nobles who acted in favor of the Jews, and members of the clergy who were remiss in enforcement were subject to a number of punishments (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
                      Egica (687–702), recognizing the wrongness of forced baptism, relaxed the pressure on the conversos, but kept it up on practicing Jews. Economic hardships included increased taxes and the forced sale, at a fixed price, of all property ever acquired from Christians. This effectively ended all agricultural activity for the Jews of Spain. Furthermore, Jews were not to engage in commerce with the Christians of the kingdom nor conduct business with Christians overseas (Katz, p. 21). Egica's measures were upheld by the Sixteenth Council of Toledo in 693.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Treaty of Tudmir?----It seems very generous for its time....!....
                        Yes, paying protection money to the guys who invaded your land, killed your rightful king, and are 'still' continually raping your wives and daughters. Very generous.

                        ...following the conversion of the Visigothic royal family under Recared from Arianism to Catholicism in 587. In their desire to consolidate the realm under the new religion, the Visigoths adopted an aggressive policy concerning the Jews. As the king and the church acted in a single interest, the situation for the Jews deteriorated. Recared approved the Third Council of Toledo's move in 589 to forcibly baptize the children of mixed marriages between Jews and Christians. Toledo III also forbade Jews from holding public office, from having intercourse with Christian women, and from performing circumcisions on slaves or Christians. Still, Recared was not entirely successful in his campaigns: not all Visigoth Arians had converted to Catholicism; the unconverted were true allies of the Jews, oppressed like themselves, and Jews received some protection from Arian bishops and the independent Visigothic nobility.

                        While the policies of subsequent Kings Liuva II (601–604), Witteric (603–610), and Gundemar (610–612) are unknown to us, Sisebut (612–620) embarked on Recared's course with renewed vigor. Soon after upholding the edict of compulsory baptism for children of mixed marriages, Sisebut instituted what was to become an unfortunate recurring phenomenon in Spanish official policy, in issuing the first edicts against the Jews of expulsion from Spain. Following his 613 decree that the Jews either convert or be expelled, some fled to Gaul and North Africa, while as many as 90,000 converted. Many of these conversos, as did those of later periods, maintained their Jewish identities in secret (Assis, p. 10). During the more tolerant reign of Suintila (621–631), however, most of the conversos returned to Judaism, and a number of the exiled returned to Spain (Encyclopaedica Judaica, p. 221.)
                        In 633, the Fourth Council of Toledo, while taking a stance in opposition to compulsory baptism, convened to address the problem of crypto-Judaism. It was decided that, if a professed Christian were determined to be a practicing Jew, his or her children were to be taken away to be raised in monasteries or trusted Christian households (Assis, p. 10). The council further directed that all who had reverted to Judaism during the reign of Swintila had to return to Christianity (Katz, p. 13). The trend toward intolerance continued with the ascent of Chintila (636–639). He directed the Sixth Council of Toledo to order that only Catholics could remain in the kingdom, and taking an unusual step further, Chintila excommunicated "in advance" any of his successors who did not act in accordance with his anti-Jewish edicts. Again, many converted while others chose exile (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
                        And yet the "problem" continued. The Eighth Council of Toledo in 653 again tackled the issue of Jews within the realm. Further measures at this time included the forbidding of all Jewish rites (including circumcision and the observation of the Shabbat), and all converted Jews had to promise to put to death, either by burning or by stoning, any of their brethren known to have relapsed to Judaism. The Council was aware that prior efforts had been frustrated by lack of compliance among authorities on the local level: therefore, anyone — including nobles and clergy — found to have aided Jews in the practice of Judaism were to be punished by seizure of one quarter of their property and excommunication (Katz, p. 16).
                        These efforts again proved unsuccessful. The Jewish population remained sufficiently sizable as to prompt Wamba (672–680) to issue limited expulsion orders against them, and the reign of Erwig (680–687) also seemed vexed by the issue. The 12th Council of Toledo again called for forced baptism, and, for those who disobeyed, seizure of property, corporal punishment, exile, and slavery. Jewish children over seven years of age were taken from their parents and similarly dealt with in 694. Erwig also took measures to ensure that Catholic sympathizers would not be inclined to aid Jews in their efforts to subvert the council's rulings. Heavy fines awaited any nobles who acted in favor of the Jews, and members of the clergy who were remiss in enforcement were subject to a number of punishments (Encyclopaedia Judaica, p. 222).
                        Egica (687–702), recognizing the wrongness of forced baptism, relaxed the pressure on the conversos, but kept it up on practicing Jews. Economic hardships included increased taxes and the forced sale, at a fixed price, of all property ever acquired from Christians. This effectively ended all agricultural activity for the Jews of Spain. Furthermore, Jews were not to engage in commerce with the Christians of the kingdom nor conduct business with Christians overseas (Katz, p. 21). Egica's measures were upheld by the Sixteenth Council of Toledo in 693.
                        Well, I have to admit, I'll have to look into that, however the Councils of Toledo did not have anything to do with deciding Canon Law.
                        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                        -Thomas Aquinas

                        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                        -Hernando Cortez

                        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                          Why do you say that, "Even with lower taxes--the economy prospered"? Might it not be because taxes were low? If you will study economic history, generally, the lower the taxes exacted, the better the economic performance.
                          Economics is an interesting subject---though I am only capable of discussing it in broad terms.....
                          There are two points of interest in the above question---a) the relationship of taxes with economy and b) "economic history"

                          economic history---I have little respect for the subject of "economic history" as defined/understood in the West---take a look at this page....
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...onomic_thought
                          ....it limits the study of economic history more or less to Aristotle and Plato in the ancient world, then jumps to Western economic thought and arrogantly presumes Adam Smith to be the "Father of Economics" thereby assuming that economics/economic models did not exist in other times and places........It is my opinion that Western-centric egoism excessively abounds in Western Academia...?.......

                          Taxes and economics----Prosperity can be understood as wealth or it can be understood as wellbeing/happiness (quality of life). The King of Bhutan proposed that the country base its measurement on GNH (Gross National Happiness) instead of the more conventional models of economic prosperity---the ideal is based on Buddhist spiritual principles)
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_happiness

                          An economic model based on consumption measures will generate better results when spending/consumption goes up---and this can be done in several ways---lower taxes so that people have more disposable income, higher taxes so the government has more disposable wealth, or (interest-bearing) debt, private or public, that can create spending/consumption.

                          However, taxes need not be viewed only as a tool of managing economic measurements. Taxes can be viewed as a mechanism for wealth redistribution. In Islam, rights are balanced by responsibilities. The right to happiness/wellbeing and security is a universal right for all human beings. However, God gives some people more wealth than others. This creates an imbalance, therefore those who have been given more wealth (by God) have more responsibility to ensure the happiness/wellbeing of those who have no/little wealth (social justice). If prosperity is understood in terms of quality of life, then taxes can be understood as wealth entrusted to the government in order to enhance the quality of life (a universal right) of all its citizens. In my opinion, this would mean smaler governments/bureaucracy, smaller military spending, and larger contributions to social and public services, social and public projects, education(at all levels), health, and community/grass roots projects and initiatives.

                          Capitalism---defined as:
                          an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
                          Islam encourages the generation of wealth through profit---that is, individuals/entities have the right to profits but with this right---comes responsibilities (social justice). This idea of balancing rights with responsibilities allows for a more balanced and just economic system.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                            Yes, paying protection money to the guys who invaded your land, killed your rightful king, and are 'still' continually raping your wives and daughters. Very generous.



                            Well, I have to admit, I'll have to look into that, however the Councils of Toledo did not have anything to do with deciding Canon Law.
                            It is clear from the article on Spain that the anti-Jewish measures were more political than religious in nature, and that forced baptisms were ordered in spite of canon law dictating otherwise. Also note that life for Jews under the Muslims was hardly peaches and cream either - and note that Muslims were motivated by political reasons to go easy on the Jews after they helped enforce the conquest of Spain. Yes, Jews could sometimes ascend to high office under Islam, but it also made them more vulnerable to more violent reactions than anything they suffered under Christians (more on that here).
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment

                            widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                            Working...
                            X